once saved, always saved????

Originally posted by divegeester
Once you are born into a family you are always part of that family, it is a genetic lineage.

Once you are born of the spirit of God, you are always his, it is a spiritual lineage.

Irrespective of whether you reject your parents, they are always your parents.

Irrespective of whether you reject God after your "salvation" (separate debate on what t ...[text shortened]... ather then you will always be his son/daughter. He will never reject you.

God is soverign

total pants and nothing short of astonishing, Satan was part of gods family, a spiritual son of god, has not god certainly rejected him and the demonic hordes who followed him from his departure from heaven to the vicinity of the earth?

Originally posted by divegeester
"you shall know them by thier fruits" ??

Yes, those who are "saved" are known by their fruits. Furthermore, those who are "saved" cannot produce bad fruit. From my experience, there are extremely few who have been "saved". So many seem to believe that all that is required is that they are baptised, "profess belief" and / or do "good works".

Matthew 7:18
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Yes, those who are "saved" are known by their fruits. Furthermore, those who are "saved" cannot produce bad fruit. From my experience, there are extremely few who have been "saved". So many seem to believe that all that is required is that they are baptised, "profess belief" and / or do "good works".

Matthew 7:18
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

There are some interesting views on these forums aren't there - not sure this is the ideal place to debate Christian precepts, but anyway -hoping not to give any offence:

King David and Bathsheba? David is a key example of "mercy triumphs over judgement". I don't think any Christian would deny that David is with God after his death, he did not lose his "salvation" despite commitmitting murder and adultery. And yet God said David was "a man after God's own heart".

However God did deal with him through the loss of his baby son. The key thing is that God's promise (his word) to David was that Jesus would be borne through his lineage - and we see that the fruit of the coupling of David and Bathsheba did indeed lead directly to Jesus. I believe God will disipline us "as sons" for our sins but he will not deny himself as our Father.

I agree that salvation is not formulaic (as you point out) but nor is the loss of it.

In terms of "those who are saved cannot produce bad fruit" I'm not sure what you mean sorry - do you mean they cannot sin? If so I would have to disagree - a cursory glance through the lives of God's prophets and servants in the scriptures will highlight the sin and error that is still in all of us despite salvation. E.g. Moses, David, Jonah, Micha, and of course Peter.

Originally posted by divegeester
There are some interesting views on these forums aren't there - not sure this is the ideal place to debate Christian precepts, but anyway -hoping not to give any offence:

King David and Bathsheba? David is a key example of "mercy triumphs over judgement". I don't think any Christian would deny that David is with God after his death, he did not los l of us despite salvation. E.g. Moses, David, Jonah, Micha, and of course Peter.

Well, you brought up "You will know them by their fruits" in answer to the question of who is "saved". As such, I think it important to see what else Jesus says about "their fruits". Jesus goes on to say, "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.", in the same passage.

Yes, they cannot continue to sin as they are to be perfect in their righteousness:
Matthew 5:20-48
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven....Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Jesus promises that His true disciples will continue in His word and be made free from committing sin:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."... "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

So, I guess it depends on whether you choose to follow the explicit teachings of Jesus or choose to make inferences as to the salvation of those you cite. People can choose whatever path they want, however as Jesus states, "the gate in narrow"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Well, you brought up "You will know them by their fruits" in answer to the question of who is "saved". As such, I think it important to see what else Jesus says about "their fruits". Jesus goes on to say, "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 ...[text shortened]... an choose whatever path they want, however as Jesus states, "the gate in narrow"

i think that we have already clearly established that this side of paradise it is impossible for a human being to be perfect or righteous in the absolute sense, why , quite simply because of inherited sin and its sinful tendency towards wrong actions, yes we have and can reflect god like qualities but we can never ever ever ever ever zither slither be perfect in an absolute sense, not while we are imperfect and on this side of paradise and as you and i know, the only thing that acquits a human being of his sin is faith in the sacrifice of Christ and death

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Well, you brought up "You will know them by their fruits" in answer to the question of who is "saved". As such, I think it important to see what else Jesus says about "their fruits". Jesus goes on to say, "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 ...[text shortened]... an choose whatever path they want, however as Jesus states, "the gate in narrow"

So, I guess it depends on whether you choose to follow the explicit teachings of Jesus or choose to make inferences as to the salvation of those you cite. ---------ToO---------------

Do you ?

Do you believe in God?

Originally posted by knightmeister
So, I guess it depends on whether you choose to follow the explicit teachings of Jesus or choose to make inferences as to the salvation of those you cite. ---------ToO---------------

Do you ?

Do you believe in God?

what are you talking about? the explicit teachings of Christ or your adaptation of them, who can tell? yes i have a profound believe in a divine creator.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i think that we have already clearly established that this side of paradise it is impossible for a human being to be perfect or righteous in the absolute sense, why , quite simply because of inherited sin and its sinful tendency towards wrong actions, yes we have and can reflect god like qualities but we can never ever ever ever ever zither slither b ...[text shortened]... e only thing that acquits a human being of his sin is faith in the sacrifice of Christ and death

Do you ever wonder why Jesus never says that "it is impossible for a human being to be perfect or righteous in the absolute sense ... because of inherited sin and its sinful tendency towards wrong actions"?

Not only does Jesus not support that concept, He states the contrary in that it is not only possible, but that it's required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Do you ever wonder why Jesus never says that "it is impossible for a human being to be perfect or righteous in the absolute sense ... because of inherited sin and its sinful tendency towards wrong actions"?

Not only does Jesus not support that concept, He states the contrary in that it is not only possible, but that it's required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation".

if you are harping back to that reference about 'you must be perfect just as your heavenly father is perfect then, no i do not or cannot accept that Christ meant perfect in the absolute sense, that is your error not mine, your interpretation not Christs, so enough of the pretense please! and if not, then indeed one must wonder what you are talking about! because quite clearly the scriptures state, and i provide a very clear biblical reference, john 17;3 ' This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.'' how do we get to know god and Christ? by attaining to perfection as you have stated or by taking in knowledge or getting to know god and Christ, i think that the scripture makes it quite plain.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if you are harping back to that reference about 'you must be perfect just as your heavenly father is perfect then, no i do not or cannot accept that Christ meant perfect in the absolute sense, that is your error not mine, your interpretation not Christs, so enough of the pretense please! and if not, then indeed one must wonder what you are talking ab nowledge or getting to know god and Christ, i think that the scripture makes it quite plain.

Once again:

Jesus promises that His true disciples will continue in His word and be made free from committing sin:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."... "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

You "get to know God and Christ" by continuing in His word (keeping His commandments) and then are true disciples of Jesus and will be set free from committing sin:

John 15:7-11
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love"

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
please can any of the 'Christians state where this idea is in scripture, for i myself have searched for it, yet it remains elusive, furthermore it seems like a license for every type of debauchery and immorality imaginable, for if we are once saved and always saved, we can do what we like, right? regards Robbie.

How do you define 'saved' is it just making the claim your are saved
or is it more than that?
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Once again:

Jesus promises that His true disciples will continue in His word and be made free from committing sin:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."... "Truly, truly, I say to you, eve ...[text shortened]... l abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love"

You "get to know God and Christ" by continuing in His word (keeping His commandments) and then are true disciples of Jesus and will be set free from committing sin:
================TOo===========

Pray tell us about how you are getting to know this God that you refuse to profess your belief in?

If you believe in God then profess your belief openly so we can all hear it. If you do not then what is this spout of stuff coming out of you and where does it come from?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what are you talking about? the explicit teachings of Christ or your adaptation of them, who can tell? yes i have a profound believe in a divine creator.

I was asking ToO not you. Bear in mind that you might well be talking to someone who will ask you to get to know a God he does not even believe in. Cool eh?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You "get to know God and Christ" by continuing in His word (keeping His commandments) and then are true disciples of Jesus and will be set free from committing sin:
================TOo===========

Pray tell us about how you are getting to know this God that you refuse to profess your belief in?

If you believe in God then profess your belief open ...[text shortened]... If you do not then what is this spout of stuff coming out of you and where does it come from?

OK, hold on, was the apostle Paul was a man who accepted Christ and was given a divine commission from Christ himself, yes? yet he was still fighting sinful tendencies, or have you never read, romans 7;21

''I find, then, this law in my case: that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sins law that is in my members. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to Gods law, but with my flesh to sins law.'

quite devastating to your misconception don't you think, for here is the clear biblical reference, of a disciple of Christ, struggling with sinful tendencies, despite being chosen by Christ and given a divine commission to preach to the nations, hopefully this is plain and simple enough for you to understand. if the verse needs explanation then just let me know and we can break it down and you can be rid of your fallacious man made doctrine once and for all! regards Robbie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
OK, hold on, was the apostle Paul was a man who accepted Christ and was given a divine commission from Christ himself, yes? yet he was still fighting sinful tendencies, or have you never read, romans 7;21

''I find, then, this law in my case: that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God ac wn and you can be rid of your fallacious man made doctrine once and for all! regards Robbie.

Here are some things to consider:

Seems to me that we the claim that Paul was given a "divine commission from Christ" basically boils down to a claim made by Paul himself. You should ask yourself how much you can trust a guy who, by his own admission, hasn't been freed from his slavery to sin.

Can Paul truly have been divinely inspired in light of this warning from Jesus about false prophets?
Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."

Someone who continues to sin as Paul admits in Romans 7 clearly fits the description of a false prophet provided by Jesus.

You are also still left with the promise made by Jesus:

Jesus promises that His true disciples will continue in His word and be made free from committing sin:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."... "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Clearly Paul had not continued in His word long enough to have been freed from the slavery of committing sin. Jesus states that His true disciples would be.