Originally posted by robbie carrobieDoesn't look like sonship answered this, but yes, that is what the text seems to imply.
so lets get this, Judas was a total reprobate. He was appointed by Christ as an apostle for no other reason than he would betray him and suffer destruction and Jesus knew this and permitted it to happen, that's what you are saying?
Although I would suggest the the Man Jesus, in his mortal body, did NOT know that Judas would betray him AT THE TIME OF HIS BEING CHOSEN! Otherwise that would raise a host of other problems. Judas had as much chance as anybody else to "go straight"
But, again, what happened to Judas after his suicide is speculation.
Originally posted by CalJustWhat impression do you get from this verse:
Yes, he committed suicide (two different versions are given) so he certainly "suffered destruction" in his mortal body.
Further than that, we are not given any insight as to what happened to his soul.
Matt 26:24 .. woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Woe unto that man?
Good for that man if he had not been born?
I think thats enough insight into what happened to him .. body and soul.
Originally posted by CalJustHow about the general statement [stated several times in the Bible] about those who abandon Christ:
Doesn't look like sonship answered this, but yes, that is what the text seems to imply.
Although I would suggest the the Man Jesus, in his mortal body, did NOT know that Judas would betray him AT THE TIME OF HIS BEING CHOSEN! Otherwise that would raise a host of other problems. Judas had as much chance as anybody else to "go straight"
But, again, what happened to Judas after his suicide is speculation.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Seems very clear to me.
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Originally posted by CalJustborn and predestined to suffer destruction, not much of a life I would say! So was Judas saved when he was an apostle or not saved?
Doesn't look like sonship answered this, but yes, that is what the text seems to imply.
Although I would suggest the the Man Jesus, in his mortal body, did NOT know that Judas would betray him AT THE TIME OF HIS BEING CHOSEN! Otherwise that would raise a host of other problems. Judas had as much chance as anybody else to "go straight"
But, again, what happened to Judas after his suicide is speculation.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHe stole from the money all the time. He was not a true follower, he was a weed/tear.
Why was Judas Iscariot not 'once saved always saved', he was after all appointed directly by Christ to a position of considerable authority and was until his betrayal of Christ a faithful apostle.
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Originally posted by RBHILLHe was chosen by Jesus to be an apostle, apparently in the full knowledge that he was destined to betray Jesus and suffer destruction! No one is contesting that what he did is wrong, what we are contesting is whether he could have redeemed himself and according to your friend Jaywill, he was doomed from the beginning! a reprobate unable to change his destiny.
He stole from the money all the time. He was not a true follower, he was a weed/tear.
I dont believe a word of it!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat sounds exactly like God's viewpoint concerning humankind.
You appear to me to be making very little sense and regardless of what you are looking at, there are not a few Biblical principles and precedents that also make little sense when viewed from the perspective of 'once saved always saved', a doctrine historically that finds no legitimacy in scripture but can be traced to Calvin and his ludicrous ideas o ...[text shortened]... ext!
so Judas was predestined to find destruction and Jesus knew that and let it happen, wow!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJesus knew he would be betrayed by Judas. So therefore he used him. Judas never truly repented. The bible clearly says he is lost forever. If the word said he would have repented then he would have. There is power in the name of Jesus that even non-believers can use his name.
He was chosen by Jesus to be an apostle, apparently in the full knowledge that he was destined to betray Jesus and suffer destruction! No one is contesting that what he did is wrong, what we are contesting is whether he could have redeemed himself and according to your friend Jaywill, he was doomed from the beginning! a reprobate unable to change his destiny.
I dont believe a word of it!
Break every chain:
http://m.
I will be back to discuss latter. Only a few pastes are in order.
Not only is this impossible according to human reason, but God's Word also says the same thing. John 13:1 says, "Jesus...having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the uttermost." Hence, there is no change in the love with which God loves men. Inasmuch as His heart was full of love for us when He went to the cross, God is still loving us today. His love has not changed. His grace has not changed either. If we think that there is the possibility for salvation and eternal life to be lost, then we have to conclude that there is the possibility for God's love to change. But this is impossible! If the source cannot change, then the outflow will never change. If the life does not change, then the fruit produced cannot change. We must know God's heart. We must realize that God cannot claim His Son back. Romans 8:32 indicates that since God is willing to give us His Son, He cannot claim Him back.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
Originally posted by sonshipMinistrybooks and the 'Council of God' says one thing and Paul says another:
I will be back to discuss latter. Only a few pastes are in order.
Not only is this impossible according to human reason, but God's Word also says the same thing. John 13:1 says, "Jesus...having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the uttermost." Hence, there is no change in the love with which God loves men. Inasmuch as His he ...[text shortened]... give us His Son, He cannot claim Him back.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Who should we believe .. tough question.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieGod knew exactly what would happen with humans and still allowed it to happen. God knew what adam would do and still let it happen.
Now way Great Ding Bat, mankind has every opportunity to repent and come into an approved relationship with the creator! There is no predestination.
Because of what adam did your daughter will get cervical cancer and die at the age of 35 and still god let's that happen.
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Originally posted by Great King RatHe provided the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ so that anyone wishing can once again come into an approved relationship so that what was fortified by Adam would have no lasting consequences.
God knew exactly what would happen with humans and still allowed it to happen. God knew what adam would do and still let it happen.
Because of what adam did your daughter will get cervical cancer and die at the age of 35 and still god let's that happen.
As for your analogy yes sickness happens but for the Christian it has no lasting impact because God has furnishes us with the hope of the resurrection.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieQuite a corporate sales pitch if ever there was one. Shame it's a load of old tosh.
He provided the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ so that anyone wishing can once again come into an approved relationship so that what was fortified by Adam would have no lasting consequences.
As for your analogy yes sickness happens but for the Christian it has no lasting impact because God has furnishes us with the hope of the resurrection.