1. Standard memberRemoved
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    28 Jul '13 21:38
    Enjoy...

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/uMcQmi1H914?feature=player_embedded
  2. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    28 Jul '13 23:31
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Enjoy...

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/uMcQmi1H914?feature=player_embedded
    ah .. that's lovely

    thank god for inventing the camera
  3. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    29 Jul '13 04:01
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Enjoy...

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/uMcQmi1H914?feature=player_embedded
    It is difficult for me to understand how so many people see the beauty and wonders of nature, yet they can't see any intelligent design in any of it.

    The Instructor
  4. Joined
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    29 Jul '13 09:08
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    It is difficult for me to understand how so many people see the beauty and wonders of nature, yet they can't see any intelligent design in any of it.

    The Instructor
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/07/28/frazz_comic_strip_science_brings_you_to_the_wonder.html

    http://www.gocomics.com/frazz/2013/07/28
  5. Standard memberRemoved
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    29 Jul '13 10:47
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    It is difficult for me to understand how so many people see the beauty and wonders of nature, yet they can't see any intelligent design in any of it.

    The Instructor
    It befuddles me too...to think it happened by chance?
  6. Cape Town
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    29 Jul '13 11:16
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    It befuddles me too...to think it happened by chance?
    The universe doesn't work 'by chance' it works via the laws of physics, some of which do appear to include randomness (chance). Any set of laws results in patterns. So you are correct to be befuddled if you think the patterns we see are the the result of pure chance. They are in fact the result of laws. There is no reason to think that intelligence is involved as simple laws is more than sufficient to explain the patterns observed.
  7. Joined
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    29 Jul '13 11:381 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The universe doesn't work 'by chance' it works via the laws of physics, some of which do appear to include randomness (chance). Any set of laws results in patterns. So you are correct to be befuddled if you think the patterns we see are the the result of pure chance. They are in fact the result of laws. There is no reason to think that intelligence is involved as simple laws is more than sufficient to explain the patterns observed.
    They are in fact the result of laws. There is no reason to think that intelligence is involved as simple laws is more than sufficient to explain the patterns observed.


    Are the laws made/created? What I mean is this... in America we have laws that are made by federal, state and local governments by which we must live, governing bodies if you will. Are physical laws likewise similar in that they are 'created' by a governing body/bodies by which we must live, or do you supposed them to be by chance?
  8. Cape Town
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    29 Jul '13 12:39
    Originally posted by kd2acz
    Are the laws made/created?
    I have no reason to believe so. I think they are brute facts.

    Are physical laws likewise similar in that they are 'created' by a governing body/bodies by which we must live, or do you supposed them to be by chance?
    Why is 'by chance' the only other option? What does it even mean for laws to be created 'by chance'?
    And if the laws are created by a governing body, then surely those laws are not the ultimate laws, but whatever laws govern the governing body are the ultimate laws. Must they too either be the result of some governing governing body or chance?
    I think there is no running away from the existence of at least some brute facts and the rest of reality being derived from those brute facts. I see no reason whatsoever for inserting any form of intelligence between the required brute facts and the laws of physics.
  9. Joined
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    29 Jul '13 17:12
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Enjoy...

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/uMcQmi1H914?feature=player_embedded
    Pretty pictures, pretty music, spoiled by the phrases, "...so that people are without excuse" and at the end,"...so great is His love for those who revere Him."

    Making it the usual holier than thou exclusionism that discredits the God of which it speaks.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    29 Jul '13 18:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have no reason to believe so. I think they are brute facts.

    [b]Are physical laws likewise similar in that they are 'created' by a governing body/bodies by which we must live, or do you supposed them to be by chance?

    Why is 'by chance' the only other option? What does it even mean for laws to be created 'by chance'?
    And if the laws are created ...[text shortened]... serting any form of intelligence between the required brute facts and the laws of physics.[/b]
    So you are simply replacing God with physical laws as brute facts that had no beginning or cause. So You believe that physical laws have always existed even before there was anything physical to control? That sounds to me to be a religious belief based on faith just like theism.

    So in your belief, does intelligence come about by these physical laws and how do you believe this happened?

    How do you get past the Law of Biogenesis that life does not arise from non-life, but life only arises from life?

    The Instructor
  11. Cape Town
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    29 Jul '13 19:38
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    So you are simply replacing God with physical laws as brute facts that had no beginning or cause.
    No, I am not replacing God. I am saying that brute facts are a necessary reality whether or not God exists. If God exists then he too must be subject to some brute fact laws that generate him and his existence.

    So You believe that physical laws have always existed even before there was anything physical to control?
    I believe some brute facts are necessary. I have no idea how the universe began or what existed first, or even if time is finite.

    That sounds to me to be a religious belief based on faith just like theism.
    It would do, because you made it up. Its not something I believe.

    So in your belief, does intelligence come about by these physical laws and how do you believe this happened?
    I think you are well aware of how I think intelligence came about. Its called evolution.

    How do you get past the Law of Biogenesis that life does not arise from non-life, but life only arises from life?
    I think you are also well aware that the 'Law of Biogenesis' is not a scientific unbreakable Law, but more like a trend. I have certainly explained it to you before and even given you references so you can read up on it for yourself. Since you seem rather forgetful, I will help you find the wikipedia page:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenesis
  12. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    29 Jul '13 21:03
    Originally posted by kd2acz
    They are in fact the result of laws. There is no reason to think that intelligence is involved as simple laws is more than sufficient to explain the patterns observed.


    Are the laws made/created? What I mean is this... in America we have laws that are made by federal, state and local governments by which we must live, governing bodies if you ...[text shortened]... d' by a governing body/bodies by which we must live, or do you supposed them to be by chance?
    Do you think the commutative law of addition was created by someone?|
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    30 Jul '13 02:521 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, I am not replacing God. I am saying that brute facts are a necessary reality whether or not God exists. If God exists then he too must be subject to some brute fact laws that generate him and his existence.

    [b]So You believe that physical laws have always existed even before there was anything physical to control?

    I believe some brute facts ar r forgetful, I will help you find the wikipedia page:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenesis[/b]
    So are you now excepting God as the creator and as the brute fact that brought the universe into existence? It seems that you do not understand the concept of God, if you think God needs brute fact laws to generate Him into existence. God is eternal, without beginning or ending, so He does not need any type of laws to bring Him into existence.

    What kind of definiton do you have for evolution that makes you think intelligence comes about by evolution. You must be thinking of something like a baby becoming more intelligent as it grows and gains more knowledge. I am thinking more of initial intelligence that provides the information for such things as DNA information code communications within a cell. I don't see how evolution can have any effect in bringing about that kind of initial intelligence.

    There are no known exceptions to the Law of Biogenesis. Perhaps you can imagine one, but I doubt it would make sense or have any possiblity of being true.

    The following is a good video that you should watch and try to understand:

    Can Natural Law Explain Genetic Information?"

    YouTube

    The Instructor
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    30 Jul '13 03:21
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    There are no known exceptions to the Law of Biogenesis. Perhaps you can imagine one, but I doubt it would make sense or have any possiblity of being true.

    The Instructor
    There was a time when bacteria were unknown.
    Did that mean they did not exist?

    There was a time when other suns were unknown.
    Did that mean that stars were really tiny rips in the firmament?
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    30 Jul '13 04:52
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    There was a time when bacteria were unknown.
    Did that mean they did not exist?

    There was a time when other suns were unknown.
    Did that mean that stars were really tiny rips in the firmament?
    I don't see the relevance.

    The Instructor
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