Optimistic Voices

Originally posted by josephw
If I'm reading you correctly, reality is the territory, and the map is drawn by our perception of reality, and if reality precedes our perceptions, then "mapping" the territory is contingent on objective inputs.

We are aware of the existence of reality, but reality exists prior to, and independent of our perception of it. Therefore, the "map" of the "terr ...[text shortened]... is why it is taking me so long to get back to this thread. I hope it doesn't get lost.

If I'm reading you correctly, reality is the territory, and the map is drawn by our perception of reality, and if reality precedes our perceptions, then "mapping" the territory is contingent on objective inputs.

Yes.

We are aware of the existence of reality, but reality exists prior to, and independent of our perception of it. Therefore, the "map" of the "territory" is already drawn independent of and prior to our perception.

I think I see what you’re getting at. I perhaps should have been more clear: by “map” I am referring to our conceptual mapping. All such maps are abstractions from reality. Think, for example of a road map: it does not report the contours of the terrain. Then there are topographical maps that indicate the contours of the terrain by different colors in two dimensions. Then there are topographical maps that actually have contour: a raising of the surface for hills, etc. But the water is only indicated by blue color: it doesn’t actually flow like the real river.

The Bible is a collection of maps; the Qur’an is another; the Tao Te Ching is another. All of them are abstractions; all of them capture some essence of the territory (in different literary forms).

The only complete “map” of the “territory” is—the territory itself, of which we also are.

I do not think that maps are bad. We learn certain mappings of reality from our parents and our culture—even before we are old enough to understand language. Later we learn more maps, and may begin making adjustments to generate our own maps. The only problem is when we become so attached to our maps that they are no longer contingent (as you say) on continued observations from reality. Our conceptual maps can become dogmas upon which we insist. We can begin to judge the territory by the map, rather than the other way around.

Dogmatic religionists tend to argue a lot about their maps: the Muslim waves his/her map at the Christian who was her/his map at the Hindu—and on and on. Underneath all those maps (and their different gridlines and names) is the same reality—before all thoughts and words and names about it. All the maps are (at least originally) attempts to describe the same territory.

Another way to look at it is that our maps (and the maps that have been given us by others) are our differing attempts to answer questions about that underlying reality in which and of which we all are. We may disagree about the answers. But in a silent and clear mind there are not yet any questions that beg such answers. That is why the so-called “mystics” of diverse religions can set aside the maps (the various conceptualizations) and share presence in the territory (at least they seem to have an easier time of it than dogmatic map-wavers).

You have seen me, over the years on here, move across Christian maps and Buddhist maps and Jewish maps and Taoist maps Sufi maps… and back again. I will use any and all of them. I do not criticize those who stick with one map (or, rather, set of maps): ultimately, any of those maps can springboard one into simply contemplating the territory itself. The danger of sticking with one map is, as I say, one can forget that it is just a map. The danger of dancing among many maps is that one can become bewitched by the variety of maps and become a kind of “spiritual dilettante”. The maps can point one to the territory; they can also become blinders to the territory.

I use the metaphor of map and territory, because it does not draw from the language of any particular map, that’s all.

My time these days is limited, which is why it is taking me so long to get back to this thread. I hope it doesn't get lost.

Same here. Since my return, I am only participating in these threads sporadically. I hope you keep well.