1. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    09 Sep '08 00:56
    You're out of the woods
    You're out of the dark
    You're out of the night
    Step into the sun, step into the light
    Keep straight ahead
    For the most glorious place
    On the Face of the Earth
    Or the sky

    Hold onto your breath
    Hold onto your heart
    Hold onto your hope
    March up to the gate
    And bid it open
  2. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    09 Sep '08 01:09
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    You're out of the woods
    You're out of the dark
    You're out of the night
    Step into the sun, step into the light
    Keep straight ahead
    For the most glorious place
    On the Face of the Earth
    Or the sky

    Hold onto your breath
    Hold onto your heart
    Hold onto your hope
    March up to the gate
    And bid it open
    Don’t seek the truth,
    just let go of all your opinions . . .

    —Seng Tsan, 3rd Zen Patriarch

    . . . and what reveals itself
    before your thoughts can clothe it
    will at least be something,
    before your opinions,
    that you can then opine about . . .

    __________________________________________

    Not a critique, ToO! Just a Zennish footnote.
  3. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    09 Sep '08 11:29
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Don’t seek the truth,
    just let go of all your opinions . . .

    —Seng Tsan, 3rd Zen Patriarch

    . . . and what reveals itself
    before your thoughts can clothe it
    will at least be something,
    before your opinions,
    that you can then opine about . . .

    __________________________________________

    Not a critique, ToO! Just a Zennish footnote.
    See you at the next Bardo too
  4. Joined
    17 Jun '09
    Moves
    1538
    26 Jun '09 23:10
    If you don't seek the Truth nobody can seek it for you.
  5. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
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    91531
    27 Jun '09 00:27
    Originally posted by daniel58
    If you don't seek the Truth nobody can seek it for you.
    The Truth will seek you if you let it.
  6. Joined
    27 Sep '06
    Moves
    9651
    27 Jun '09 00:31
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Don’t seek the truth,
    just let go of all your opinions . . .

    —Seng Tsan, 3rd Zen Patriarch

    . . . and what reveals itself
    before your thoughts can clothe it
    will at least be something,
    before your opinions,
    that you can then opine about . . .

    __________________________________________

    Not a critique, ToO! Just a Zennish footnote.
    Don't seek the truth?

    What is one supposed to make of that idea?

    It's like saying there is truth, but don't try to learn what it is because knowing the truth might cause one to think soundly.

    Don't seek the truth. Man, that's absurd!
  7. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
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    91531
    27 Jun '09 00:36
    Originally posted by josephw
    Don't seek the truth?

    What is one supposed to make of that idea?

    It's like saying there is truth, but don't try to learn what it is because knowing the truth might cause one to think soundly.

    Don't seek the truth. Man, that's absurd!
    its absurd for a reason.
  8. Joined
    27 Sep '06
    Moves
    9651
    27 Jun '09 01:13
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    its absurd for a reason.
    Is that true?
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91531
    27 Jun '09 08:08
    Originally posted by josephw
    Is that true?
    yep. just ask vistesd.
  10. Joined
    27 Sep '06
    Moves
    9651
    27 Jun '09 12:04
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    yep. just ask vistesd.
    I have.
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
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    91531
    27 Jun '09 13:12
    Originally posted by josephw
    I have.
    aargh! just stop it josephw.
    Are you trying to tell me that vistesd did not answer you?
    Ask him again. If still no answer then ask me.
  12. Joined
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    Moves
    9651
    27 Jun '09 13:20
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    aargh! just stop it josephw.
    Are you trying to tell me that vistesd did not answer you?
    Ask him again. If still no answer then ask me.
    Okay karoly. What is the reason?
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
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    91531
    28 Jun '09 00:531 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    Okay karoly. What is the reason?
    thank you for asking
    I think it is supposed to act like a'tool' to 'snap' you out of your 'everyday' thinking and present to your mind a completely illogical thought (or koan) .
  14. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
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    22131
    28 Jun '09 02:01
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    thank you for asking
    I think it is supposed to act like a'tool' to 'snap' you out of your 'everyday' thinking and present to your mind a completely illogical thought (or koan) .
    Yes. Although in this case it isn’t completely illogical, but still aimed at shaking up facile assumptions.

    By leaping to an opinion—“Don’t seek the truth. Man, that’s absurd!”—Joseph both missed Seng Tsan’s point, and at the same time illustrated it. (Hello, Joseph! I didn’t know that I’d ignored your question; I didn’t even remember this post till it popped up again.)

    On the one hand, if one does not already know what the truth would look like, how does one go about “seeking” it? How would one know it if one saw it? But, if one already knows what the truth looks like—why is one “seeking” it!?

    On the other hand, if one first forms an opinion about what the truth should look like, then one will likely reject anything that does not look like that opinion (or set of opinions). What one then declares to be the truth is likely to look an awful lot like the opinion(s) that one formed in order to look for it: one is likely to find what one is looking for, whether that is really the truth or not.

    And if one simply exchanges one set of opinions for another, then the “truth” will appear differently, according to that new set of opinions.

    That is the dilemma.

    ______________________________________________

    Note—

    In English, the word “truth” is cognate with words like “trust” and “troth”. Thus, we have something called a “correspondence theory of truth”—a true statement is one whose conceptual content accurately corresponds with the reality.

    Seng Tsan, as a Buddhist, comes out of a different linguistic matrix—one in which “truth” is cognate with “reality” (or “being” ): in Sanskrit, for example, satya and sat, respectively. In such a way of thinking, truth is reality, before we form any conceptual statements, or beliefs, or opinions, about it.
  15. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    28 Jun '09 02:281 edit
    My, my, my. You post the lyrics, of a widely known song, that few would recognize and look what comes of it. Almost a year later it inexplicably gets resurrected and becomes a primer of sorts for Zen koans. Come to think of it, the premise for the thread was a koan of sorts. And the circle closes on itself. 🙂
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