Origin :) the numbers

@sonhouse said
@KellyJay
You have a strange take on logic. For instance, geologists know pretty well how long it takes for land masses to crash into each other and bounce off and such. Those numbers are in the millions or tens of millions of years not a few thousand in which times I doubt those land masses like Australia moved more than a couple of miles at most. It was in basically the ...[text shortened]... , where it WILL be (the continents, like Australia).
Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

There are a lot of things that people believe took millions or tens of millions of years, even billions of years, time doesn't really matter to me. I'm concern about the beginning of all things, now that could be it billions of years ago, or thousands of years, either choice or some other number, doesn't change one thing, it started so it had to start due to some cause outside of itself.

@kellyjay said
There are a lot of things that people believe took millions or tens of millions of years, even billions of years, time doesn't really matter to me. I'm concern about the beginning of all things, now that could be it billions of years ago, or thousands of years, either choice or some other number, doesn't change one thing, it started so it had to start due to some cause outside of itself.

Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

"Firstborn" Greek prōtotokos. Jesus is the cause. You got it right kelly.

@kellyjay said
There are a lot of things that people believe took millions or tens of millions of years, even billions of years, time doesn't really matter to me. I'm concern about the beginning of all things, now that could be it billions of years ago, or thousands of years, either choice or some other number, doesn't change one thing, it started so it had to start due to some cause outside of itself.

The beginning of all things seemed to have started rather abruptly, at least, in terms of life on earth

The earliest found life forms occurred some 3.5 billion years ago on earth.

Then you had the Cambrian Explosion.

Yes, life "evolutions" seem to be punctuated and not gradual as once thought.

@kellyjay said
There are a lot of things that people believe took millions or tens of millions of years, even billions of years, time doesn't really matter to me. I'm concern about the beginning of all things, now that could be it billions of years ago, or thousands of years, either choice or some other number, doesn't change one thing, it started so it had to start due to some cause outside of itself.

Don't say MAYBE it was thousands of years ago. It WAS billions of years ago and no doubt about that. If you doubt that you doubt all the work of 300 years of the advancement of science and that denigrates ALL of them, all the Einsteins, all the Newtons, all the Curie's, all the Tao's, all the deep thinking of literally hundreds of years down the toilet if you can rationalize 'well it MIGHT be 6000 years but it also MIGHT be 13 billion years'. There is no MIGHT to it, it is in fact billions of years and if you don't believe my magnetic record thing you need to study into it and verify it independently. Do you deny Africa and America is spreading apart? All you have to do is look at the eastern edge of North and South America and the western edge of Africa and notice the way on dips in and one dips out like two pieces of a puzzle because going BACK in time millions of years, they were part of the same land, squished together but the forces of the mantle pushed them apart and in millions upon millions of years the WEST coast of the Americas will collide with the EAST coast of the line from India to Russia and goodbye Hawaii, crunched into powder under all that. But SLOW SLOW SLOW.
That is what is happening RIGHT now. An inch at a time, enextricable, inevitable. No stopping it now, a million years ago or a million years from now.
So don't half think 'well it COULD have been a few thousand years' without knowing the VAST amount of energy that would be expended in that short a time frame. Like a 10 level earthquake EVERY DAY. Or worse. It just aint gonna happen. The earthquakes are bad enough as it is, it would be compounded a thousand times worse if ANY of that happened in 10,000 years or 100,000 years or a MILLION years. The amount of energy expended like that would be ENOURMOUSLY more than we see today and THAT is enormous enough to ruin our days like the ones in California over the last century.

@secondson said
Did you know that the Bible says that God knows the name of every star?

Do you know how many stars there are?

Nothing is random. Everything is by design.

"Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it."

Please sonhouse, don't be so inflexible. 😉

The bible says a lot of things, that doesn't mean they are true. The Upanishads say a lot of things too, but you would be the first to agree THEY are not all true either. And the same for all the religious writings of all the other religions in the world. You would have no problem saying THOSE writings were false but the one YOU adhere to, THEY are 100% infallible because OUR god is the REAL god and you better not even TRY to deny that, I will chop your head off.....

Do you know there are not enough words in English to name all the stars? Try naming all the atoms in a peanut.....
Just because the bible says something, you inevitably believe it HAS to be true. In that case, how can you even TOY with the idea the universe is 14 billion years old and the Solar System is almost 5 bil?
Your buddies have gone through all the Mary begat joseph who begat uncle elmer who begat billy who begat, etc., etc., etc., and so came up with that ridiculous 6000 year history for the entire universe. That is such a crock of shyte.
Start with a false premise, keep adding more BS to it till you firmly believe the entire universe is 6000 years old.
But if you believe in your bible you HAVE to believe that, you have no choice.
Otherwise you don't believe in it.

Also, I never said everything was random. It was NOT random. The energy for life came from the basic building blocks of the universe whether you want to call it by design or not, it all adds up to the same thing.
AND btw, like I have said a hundred times, life origin study is a COMPLETELY different scientific discipline than evolution, which like I said comes from the word EVOLVE which means CHANGE.
Or how lifeforms changed once it started and evolutionists could care less HOW it started, just what happened AFTER.

Life origin studies could also care less about how lifeforms CHANGES, they ONLY want to know what kickstarted life and if it is scientifically proven GODDIDIT, then the scientific proof of that wins and we from thenceforth have to say a god created us. Till that kind of proof comes up, they are going to work with what they KNOW, like there is totally isolated life around hydrothermal vents in the ocean where superheated water and the minerals and the water all meet together and just coincidentally there is tons of life there.
That kind of thinking is what makes us think maybe just maybe there may be life in the deep oceans of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, if some kind of thermal vent is under that 40 mile deep ocean, life may have started there independently of ANYTHING on Earth.
And of course you have the next two hundred years or so to poo poo that concept but just your poo poo ing it doesn't make it false, it just makes it impossible to prove till we get spacecraft to land on those moons with the technology needed to drill or melt through many miles of ice to get to what they are pretty sure is liquid ocean and more water there than in all the oceans on Earth. Water plus minerals plus energy is the most likely scenario that might kick start life anywhere in the universe.
And feel free to believe a god designed it that way but not 6000 years ago, but as far back as science says. If you can go to that idea then science and religion can live in harmony. If not, we are back to fighting the lawsuits of the religious right trying to force creationism to be taught in a science classroom AS IF IT WERE A SCIENCE, which is what the right wingnuts want to force it upon everyone. That is not gonna happen.

But religious folk DEMAND the two disciplines be connected at the hip and therefore if we can't figure out exactly how life started, you therefore think you are justified in dissing the entire discipline of evolution. THAT DOESN'T happen, only in the minds of the religious set and that is on you not science. You don't get to define scientific disciplines based on the bible. SCIENTISTS get to do that.

@sonhouse said
Don't say MAYBE it was thousands of years ago. It WAS billions of years ago and no doubt about that. If you doubt that you doubt all the work of 300 years of the advancement of science and that denigrates ALL of them, all the Einsteins, all the Newtons, all the Curie's, all the Tao's, all the deep thinking of literally hundreds of years down the toilet if you can rationalize ...[text shortened]... oday and THAT is enormous enough to ruin our days like the ones in California over the last century.

It doesn't matter to me how long you think the process takes or took, not concern about age. You can have all the time in the world, but if what is being proposed is still unable to do the job, it doesn't matter, and so far there is nothing that shows how all of the information that directs and guides life formation sprang out of a blind, unguided, uncaring, purposeless process, of natural laws could form life.

You want to suggest you know what happen billions or millions of years ago, quite the brag, but you don't know, you could be right or wrong. Neither of us can say due to the limitations we have on us, but what we can see right now, suggests that only a mind can create information that can direct work so specific things can be done. Even the mind of a bird can create a birds nest, ants build any hills, people can create all types of things. We have natural formations we can see occur through natural process, but things that have stop, starts, specific jobs working in a system to do specific things and not others, that is the work of a mind.

@sonhouse said
The bible says a lot of things, that doesn't mean they are true. The Upanishads say a lot of things too, but you would be the first to agree THEY are not all true either. And the same for all the religious writings of all the other religions in the world. You would have no problem saying THOSE writings were false but the one YOU adhere to, THEY are 100% infallible because OU ...[text shortened]... ience. You don't get to define scientific disciplines based on the bible. SCIENTISTS get to do that.

One thing we agree on creation and evolution are not the same thing, one is a process the other an event.

@sonhouse said
The bible says a lot of things, that doesn't mean they are true. The Upanishads say a lot of things too, but you would be the first to agree THEY are not all true either. And the same for all the religious writings of all the other religions in the world. You would have no problem saying THOSE writings were false but the one YOU adhere to, THEY are 100% infallible because OU ...[text shortened]... ience. You don't get to define scientific disciplines based on the bible. SCIENTISTS get to do that.

WOW sonhouse, seriously, that's awesome stuff. I just had to read it twice to absorb it all.

At the very least you clarified your position relative to what you believe science has discovered. If only I thought there was something I could say to change your mind.

I know there isn't, but maybe you might agree that your argument isn't perfectly airtight. I mean, not everything you said above is perfectly true.

It just seems to me that it would be more scientific to have an opened mind to the possibility, that while science can measure and record the earth and the material universe, and say it's doing this and that at this moment in time, i.e. recent history relative to modern science and the record of human affairs, say, 10,000 years or so, that maybe things "in the beginning" weren't then as they appear to be today. That there was an event not visible to science that occurred giving the universe the appearance science recognizes today, but can't recognize how it appeared "in the beginning".

Do you see my point?

Perhaps science will come up to speed with the Bible someday and discover the whole truth. 😉

@SecondSon
Or Vice versa. Like I said, y'all have a perhaps 200 year window in which you can safely dis science and keep proclaiming the bible is THE truth and no other religion on Earth is true, ALL others are 100% false, all the other thousand creation stories are just myth.
When science shows exactly how life arose, like I said, the religious set, especially the Abrahamic religions, will just move the goalpost, at least that is my take on it.
I cannot see those religions, thousands of years old and totally set in their disparate ways, will change a word about THEIR creation tale.
Do you see that happening? That comes the time when scientists can say for 100% surety 'life on Earth and around the whole universe, as much as we have physically gone to anyway, started with X,Y, and Z, and we have duplicated early life in the laboratory' or some variation like that. Would you see a day, say even 300 years from now when the scientific question of how life started on Earth and presumably everywhere else in at least the solar system has been precisely figured out, do you think for a SECOND there would be any kind of revision of ANY Abrahamic creation tale in any of the several of those bible, Quran, Torah and such, you seriously think any of that would change?

@sonhouse said
@SecondSon
Or Vice versa. Like I said, y'all have a perhaps 200 year window in which you can safely dis science and keep proclaiming the bible is THE truth and no other religion on Earth is true, ALL others are 100% false, all the other thousand creation stories are just myth.
When science shows exactly how life arose, like I said, the religious set, especially the Abraha ...[text shortened]... of the several of those bible, Quran, Torah and such, you seriously think any of that would change?

Like your other story this is still a promise of future events due to unknown past events. It isn't airtight it is faith, putting your faith in man's ability to both understand what is in front of him as he contemplates the distant past, and with those assumptions coming up with theories on what possible predictions or understanding will be in the future. Nothing about that is solid ground, it is just a matter of what you trust, people looking at things and projecting what think occurred and will occur! You don't know what is, or isn't true or false, all stories even those within science we cannot know with certainty.

People used to believe the earth and universe were dated from thousands of years, billions of years, eternally we are all over the place and we continue to be all over the place. We can say today, "WE KNOW", we don't, because the pattern is "We know now", oh we know more so, "WE KNOW NOW", oh we know more so, "WE KNOW NOW". It is an unending cycle. There is an answer, if its eternal, than every age we claimed were are all wrong! If there is a date certain it would be like picking a date out of an eternal list of possibilities, and how do we really know no matter what we say?

YouTube

C.S. Lewis The laws of nature
8 minutes, very informative enjoyable talk and art work.
I think no matter your views on origin this will be enjoyable.

@kellyjay said
Like your other story this is still a promise of future events due to unknown past events. It isn't airtight it is faith, putting your faith in man's ability to both understand what is in front of him as he contemplates the distant past, and with those assumptions coming up with theories on what possible predictions or understanding will be in the future. Nothing about that ...[text shortened]... ing a date out of an eternal list of possibilities, and how do we really know no matter what we say?

Mankind is REAL, there is no denying that. Your god is a no show. You have never seen it, never talked two way to it, never seen a human helped by this alleged god.
Consider this: The universe is so large it is larger than we can almost imagine.
The universe has the same stuff here in our neck of the woods as in galaxies a billion light years away.
That means the stuff of life is also the same here as in those far away galaxies. The thing about galaxies is that there are literally billions of stars in even a small one. Our galaxy is a run of the mill vanilla galaxy with hundreds of billions of stars.
Right now our technology is good enough to sniff out the presence of literally thousands of planets around relatively nearby stars in our galaxy.
Not sure the furthest one but lets say there are 5000 planets detected within one thousand light years, but the galaxy is one hundred times bigger than that. So there should be not 100 X 5000 but 100 Squared X 5000 planets so there could be literally billions of planets in our galaxy alone. We think we have found a few of those in the 'goldilocks' zone (liquid water on the surface) out of those 5K planets we have found. Most of them are in what to use would be weird orbits, planets the size of Jupiter closer to the parent sun than Mercury is now so that planet might have a surface temperature of a thousand degree's like Venus and a lot of them are like that, close in, huge planets hotter than hell. But a few are in the right zone that could support life.
So let's just say planets in the goldilocks zone are one in a thousand. That still leaves literally millions of planets in our galaxy that could support life.
That is ONE galaxy. There are in fact hundreds of billions of GALAXIES.
So say there are one million planets in our galaxy that at least has liquid water on the surface and say just ONE billion galaxies. So we end up with an estimate of a million BILLION planets capable of supporting life in this universe.
Get the picture? Let's say the religious view of the scientific view is totally correct, where everything is random. Well that randomness has produced life here on Earth so there is ONE place with life. But there are literally quadrillions of planets with liquid water on them. How could you not think there wouldn't be life on at least SOME of those planets? So lets suppose this random thing limits life to one in a million planets that have liquid water, then there would be literally billions of planets in the universe with real life on them even under your 'random' assessment.
So here is this goddidit dude who made it all. So it would have to follow the life forms of billions of planets 24/7 to make sure those life forms evolve like this god wants.
This would be more like the universe being like one huge brain with neurons encompassing every planet in the universe.
But our universe has this speed limit. The speed of light. Now that means any change has to be done everywhere at the same time which goes against that speed limit. This god could not do all that stuff with the rules of our universe.
It seems not realistic to even contemplate such a god with fingers on every planet in the universe at the same time, when all that this goddidit dude would have to do was invent the RULES of the universe, the speed of light is X, magnetic fields are Y times stronger than gravity, electromagnetic waves coming in sizes smaller than atoms to the size of our galaxy, and so forth, all leading to a universe letting life thrive which you have to admit happens here on Earth. Life can thrive on billions of other planets also and I think we will find (assuming we ever get off this planet and maybe around other stars) life everywhere we look. I think the amount of life will be found to be rife right here in our own solar system, anywhere there is liquid water, minerals, and energy.
That would mean life not on 'mere' billions of planets but on TRILLIONS of planets scattered around the universe.
All those life forms having their own version of evolution and styles of body shapes and such, maybe on some planet with mostly oceans a super intelligent octopus like life with tentacles and brains in every tentacle like octopus have right here on Earth and if humans go extinct something like that life form might be the dominant intelligent life form on Earth after humans.
Of course just speculation but here it the deal on that kind of speculation:
We don't need a god to do that kind of speculation or that estimate I just came up with about the amount of possible life elsewhere in the galaxy and the rest of the galaxies in the universe.
A god did not do that. A human (lots of humans actually) have done that. No god has added its help in that assessment. The words in genesis doesn't cut it for what humans have already figured out, like telescopes, figuring out DNA and the like.
WE did that, not a god and WE could theoretically advance enough to become god-like in our own right. There is no god whispering in Einstein's ear, 'hey, follow a beam of light in your mind, see what you come up with'. He did that all by himself. And the same with all the other scientists for the last 1000 years.
We are now presented with the possibility of guiding our OWN evolution from here on out. That has already started and there is no stopping it, for better or worse. A chinese scientist has already made a genetically engineered baby, two of them actually. That is just the opening round.
The implications of that is we could say engineer humans to live in oceans not needing to every break the surface of an ocean, and maybe that ocean is a thousand life years from Earth.
Just saying a god is not involved in any of what I just said. HUMANS are. That puts Humans in the drivers seat with no god needed. The advancement we have already achieved has not been stopped by a god so it must therefore approve even if it is in fact hands off. If it for instance did not like our science, it could have simply have given say Einstein a brain tremor that would stop him from ever developing relativity and the same with all the other sciences we have so far figured out.
That hasn't happened so you would have to admit this alleged god WANTS us to figure it all out.
So we are. And the religious set has only a limited window of time before we in fact figure it ALL out, where and how we came to be and all the rest.

@kellyjay said
[youtube] _20yiBQAIlk [/youtube]

C.S. Lewis The laws of nature
8 minutes, very informative enjoyable talk and art work.
I think no matter your views on origin this will be enjoyable.

Just remember, it was HUMANS who came up with all of that thought. Not a god. As long as science is looking for but not completely finding the answers, religious folk have something to hang their hat on, 'science doesn't know the answers to EVERYTHING therefore it knows nothing' or some variation.
Like I said, you call it faith, I call it seeing the development of science and see it inevitable we will know the answers to the biggest questions even if it is not for a thousand years. A thousand years to us is many lifetimes. To the universe that span of time is the tick of a millisecond on the universe clock.

@sonhouse said
@SecondSon
Or Vice versa. Like I said, y'all have a perhaps 200 year window in which you can safely dis science and keep proclaiming the bible is THE truth and no other religion on Earth is true, ALL others are 100% false, all the other thousand creation stories are just myth.
When science shows exactly how life arose, like I said, the religious set, especially the Abraha ...[text shortened]... of the several of those bible, Quran, Torah and such, you seriously think any of that would change?

200 years? It won't be nearly that long before everyone on the planet will know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the truth is.

But for the sake of argument, let's say science actually did prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution is the case. I believe there will always be some that will stick to the old ways, albeit they will be confined to isolated colonies as it were and left to themselves. As, for example, the Amish are. They would be able to pose a threat, and would of necessity eventually disappear.

But that's all speculation of course.

@sonhouse said
Mankind is REAL, there is no denying that. Your god is a no show. You have never seen it, never talked two way to it, never seen a human helped by this alleged god.
Consider this: The universe is so large it is larger than we can almost imagine.
The universe has the same stuff here in our neck of the woods as in galaxies a billion light years away.
That means the stuff o ...[text shortened]... ed window of time before we in fact figure it ALL out, where and how we came to be and all the rest.

None of that has anything to do with the beginning of the universe, or God’s limitations in any place, at any time.-