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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. 16 Jun '18 14:40 / 1 edit
    Once Saved Fallen Away

    Hebrews 6

    4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.



    The Bible clearly states there are those who were saved but fell away. They are beyond redemption.
  2. Standard member Rajk999online
    Enjoying
    16 Jun '18 15:02
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Once Saved Fallen Away

    Hebrews 6

    4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.



    The Bible clearly states there are those who were saved but fell away. They are beyond redemption.
    Obviously .. its all over the bible.
  3. 16 Jun '18 15:16
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Obviously .. its all over the bible.
    Yes t this one is impossible to try to side step. It can only be ignored.
  4. Standard member Rajk999online
    Enjoying
    16 Jun '18 15:23
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Yes t this one is impossible to try to side step. It can only be ignored.
    I have already discussed all these passages with sonship over the years. This is nothing new here. He will give some cock and bull story and try to explain it away. But its all nonsense explanations.
  5. 16 Jun '18 15:27
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    I have already discussed all these passages with sonship over the years. This is nothing new here. He will give some cock and bull story and try to explain it away. But its all nonsense explanations.
    That is because he is deceived. To admit error is to have his belief system come tumbling down.
  6. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    16 Jun '18 15:30
    "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found....But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’” (Luke 15:11-32 condensed).


    Didn't the son in the parable 'fall away' and become lost, and yet was welcomed back and forgiven by his father?
  7. 16 Jun '18 15:52
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Once Saved Fallen Away

    Hebrews 6

    4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.



    The Bible clearly states there are those who were saved but fell away. They are beyond redemption.
    Can an arguable case be made for the following?

    Only God knows, or will judge, who really falls into this category of ‘once been enlightened’ and now ‘fallen away.’ The passage warns but does not itself identify those persons. If we are to know who these people are (including whether we are one of them) we have to look elsewhere in scripture for the signs.
  8. Standard member Rajk999online
    Enjoying
    16 Jun '18 15:53 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found....But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’” (Luke 15:11-32 condensed).


    Didn't the son in the parable 'fall away' and become lost, and yet was welcomed back and forgiven by his father?
    He repented, and his repentance was genuine. If the son repeatedly did the same thing, there would come a point when there would be no forgiveness. That is what the passage says. God knows the heart of man.
  9. Standard member Rajk999online
    Enjoying
    16 Jun '18 15:58
    Originally posted by @js357
    Can an arguable case be made for the following?

    Only God knows, or will judge, who really falls into this category of ‘once been enlightened’ and now ‘fallen away.’ The passage warns but does not itself identify those persons. If we are to know who these people are (including whether we are one of them) we have to look elsewhere in scripture for the signs.
    Of course only God knows.
    Is someone saying otherwise?
  10. 16 Jun '18 16:35
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Of course only God knows.
    Is someone saying otherwise?
    Not here, so far.
  11. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    16 Jun '18 16:50 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @eladar
    It does not unequivocally say with absolutely no ambiguity that they are no longer eternally redeemed.

    OSND = Once Saved Never DIsciplined is a erroneous concept of many. It falsely claims that a person eternally redeemed can never be chastised, disciplined or dispensationally punished after the second coming of Christ.

    This passage PROVES that one eternally redeemed and eternally saved may be disciplined.

    "If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)


    The ones mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-8 are are among those who "suffer loss" and who are not to receive a reward but are saved yet so as through fire.

    Verse 8 compares them to ground which is "near a curse".

    "Near a curse" is not to BE cursed. It is to be "NEAR ... a curse"

    Eader and Rajk999 want to take them to BE CURSED unto eternal perdition.

    Furthermore the burning up of the thorns, thistles, that the ground "near a curse" undergoes corresponds to the building materials of wood, hay, and stubble being burned up at the fiery examination of the SAVED.

    "If anyone's work is consumed, he is suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

    Compare:
    "For the earth which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.

    But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and NEAR ... a curse, whose end is to be burned." (Heb. 6:7,8)


    The ground is not burned up. The unsuitable vegetation is burned up. The ground is not cursed. But the unsuitable vegetation to be consumed makes the ground NEAR a curse.

    These believers are still eternally redeemed.
  12. 16 Jun '18 17:02
    Originally posted by @sonship
    It does not unequivocally say with absolutely no ambiguity that they are no longer eternally redeemed.

    OSND = Once Saved Never DIsciplined is a erroneous concept of many. It falsely claims that a person eternally redeemed can never be chastised, disciplined or dispensationally punished after the second coming of Christ.

    This passage PROVES that one ...[text shortened]... consumed makes the ground [b]NEAR
    a curse.

    These believers are still eternally redeemed.[/b]
    You are blind or simply a liar.

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

    Those who fall away will be burned. They will be cast into the lake of fire.
  13. Standard member Rajk999online
    Enjoying
    16 Jun '18 17:07
    Originally posted by @eladar
    You are blind or simply a liar.

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of G ...[text shortened]... will be burned.

    Those who fall away will be burned. They will be cast into the lake of fire.
    Sonship is very versatile. Why does he have to choose.
    He is both blind and a liar lol 😀
  14. Standard member Rajk999online
    Enjoying
    16 Jun '18 17:09
    Here is another

    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)
  15. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    16 Jun '18 17:22 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @eladar
    You are blind or simply a liar.


    Ad hom, but no effective rebuttal yet.


    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.


    I see that. And I think the context is that some of the Hebrew believers actually fell away to go back to Judaism. It is possible that some left the Christian assembly and tried to return to the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.

    Some perhaps DIED in that backslidden condition. That is Jewish followers of Jesus who fell away to try GO BACK to repenting the old way through animal sacrifices.

    It is impossible.
    It is not necessary.
    It is not right.

    It is not possible in that it is impossible that the old animal sacrifices would do the job that only the sacrifice of Christ Once For All could do.

    Since going back to the old way is impossible now that Christ has come, the writer says

    "For it is impossible to renew themselves unto repentance ... "


    It is not right that they should TRY.
    It is not necessary that they should TRY.
    And it is not possible that they should TRY.

    The backsliding is serious though and at the judgment seat of Christ for believers puts them "NEAR ... a curse".

    It does NOT say that they are CURSED. YOU imply that erroneously.


    To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


    This is indeed a serious offense. No one is saying that it is not a serious offense. But it is the WORKS that are burned up. And they are NEAR a curse and NOT actually CURSED for ever.


    7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.


    The worthless vegetation is burned up.


    Those who fall away will be burned. They will be cast into the lake of fire.


    IF they go eternally to the lake of fire then they are not NEAR a curse but actually CURSED. But it says they are NEAR a curse.

    So if they are actually eternally cursed to perish forever then John 10:28 would be Christ's lie.

    "And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28)


    "By NO MEANS PERISH FOREVER" means BY NO MEANS ... PERISH FOREVER.

    So being NEAR a curse must be a temporary punishment.