1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    08 Mar '14 19:32
    Our Addresses

    Christianity cannot be forced on people; belief in the person and work of Christ must be optional.

    "He who believes on the Son, Jesus Christ, has eternal life." (John 3:36a)

    The alternative is:

    "He who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36b)

    While belief in Christ is an option, eternity isn't. All of here have only a few fleeting decades or years, months, weeks or days until our individual permanent address for eternity will become occupied. Please ponder your decision. No need to reply.
  2. Cape Town
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    08 Mar '14 20:10
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    While belief in Christ is an option, eternity isn't. All of here have only a few fleeting decades or years, months, weeks or days until our individual permanent address for eternity will become occupied. Please ponder your decision. No need to reply.
    When will you figure out that threatening people just doesn't work. Especially when they are empty threats.
    You say belief must be optional, when in reality, belief is based on reason rather than choice. If you really want people to believe the same as you do, then you would do well to try and convince them that your beliefs are correct. Instead you seem intent on convincing us that you are a total nutcase.
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    08 Mar '14 20:545 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    When will you figure out that threatening people just doesn't work. Especially when they are empty threats.
    You say belief must be optional, when in reality, belief is based on reason rather than choice. If you really want people to believe the same as you do, then you would do well to try and convince them that your beliefs are correct. Instead you seem intent on convincing us that you are a total nutcase.
    If you really want people to believe the same as you do, then you would do well to try and convince them that your beliefs are correct.

    Perhaps GB doesn't bother because he knows that it's tough sledding pushing his "faith only" dogma - especially with the verse he chose.

    Following is the American Standard Version translation of the same verse:
    John 3
    36He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Note the differences between what GB posted and the ASV translation. In the ASV translation the "wrath of God abideth" on "he that obeyeth not" rather than "He who does not believe".

    The following is an explanation of why the ASV is the correct translation:
    (3) The Greek term for “believe” is pisteuo. To assert the opposite idea, the Greeks simply added an “a” (a negative prefix) to the front of the word. Hence, apistia is “unbelief” (Heb. 3:12), and apistos is rendered “unbelievers” (1 Cor. 6:6) or “faithless” (Mt. 17:17).
    On the other hand, there is another Greek word, apeitheo, which is found sixteen times in the New Testament. It literally means to “not obey,” or, to say the same thing in another way, to “disobey.” In spite of this clear difference in meaning, the KJV translators rendered apeitheo by “believe not” (or a similar equivalent) some nine times out of the sixteen.
    Compare the KJV with the ASV in John 3:36. The former renders apeitheo by “believeth not,” while the ASV translators correctly render the term as “obeyeth not.” The KJV obscures the truth that belief is more than a mere mental process; rather, it entails obedience.

    Pasted from <https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/257-were-the-king-james-version-translators-biased-toward-the-faith-only-doctrine>


    BTW, GB's translation is not the KJV translation, but both indicate "not believe" rather than "not obey". From what I can tell, GB has either used a very uncommon translation or altered one for his own purposes.
  4. Standard memberRBHILL
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    08 Mar '14 21:56
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    When will you figure out that threatening people just doesn't work. Especially when they are empty threats.
    You say belief must be optional, when in reality, belief is based on reason rather than choice. If you really want people to believe the same as you do, then you would do well to try and convince them that your beliefs are correct. Instead you seem intent on convincing us that you are a total nutcase.
    I think his treat is a matter of opinion eh?
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    09 Mar '14 02:37
    No. It's simply a matter of context.

    The word does not mean simply to obey, but to believe and obey. It is rendered as one or the other, based on context, simply because English has no such word meaning both. Which English word is used is based on context.

    On the other hand, Christians do understand that belief contains an element of obedience. It would be massive overkill to render this word as "believe and obey" every single time it appears. This is one way to push an agenda without seeming to do so, by insisting that *your* meaning of a word is the *only* correct meaning, when the truth is that context decides which English word is rendered. It's okay, the JWs don't 'get' this either.
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    09 Mar '14 03:092 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    No. It's simply a matter of context.

    The word does not mean simply to obey, but to believe and obey. It is rendered as one or the other, based on context, simply because English has no such word meaning both. Which English word is used is based on context.

    On the other hand, Christians do understand that belief contains an element of obedience. It ...[text shortened]... hat context decides which English word is rendered. It's okay, the JWs don't 'get' this either.
    What I quoted was written by a Christian. A Christian who made a strong case for the interpretation he supports. If you believe you can make a strong case for the interpretation you support, then by all means, do so.
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    09 Mar '14 04:071 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    No. It's simply a matter of context.

    The word does not mean simply to obey, but to believe and obey. It is rendered as one or the other, based on context, simply because English has no such word meaning both. Which English word is used is based on context.

    On the other hand, Christians do understand that belief contains an element of obedience. It ...[text shortened]... hat context decides which English word is rendered. It's okay, the JWs don't 'get' this either.
    So you don't believe in a "truth" in the Bible, lets say with a direct comment from God such as:

    “You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22.


    Romans 1:26-27
    New Century Version (NCV)
    26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex and began wanting each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

    Do you think one can just have whatever options or opinions that sound good to them and their life, work with God and then say that is ok with God?

    We say and show from the Bible that homosexuality is completely wrong in God's eyes with no exceptions ever. That is a truth throughout the Bible.
    Do you agree this is an "only correct meaning" or belief we have and if so should we not express that to others?
    Maybe we do "get it"....
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    09 Mar '14 05:362 edits
    Originally posted by galveston75
    So you don't believe in a "truth" in the Bible, lets say with a direct comment from God such as:

    “You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22.


    Romans 1:26-27
    New Century Version (NCV)
    26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things t ...[text shortened]... ng" or belief we have and if so should we not express that to others?
    Maybe we do "get it"....
    You really don't care what the Bible actually says as evidenced by your blatant dishonesty in trying to defend JW dogma regarding slavery in another thread. Your hypocrisy seems to have no bounds.
  9. Cape Town
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    09 Mar '14 06:08
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    I think his treat is a matter of opinion eh?
    No, his threat is an empty threat to those that do not believe him. If I say I will beat you up if you don't give me your lunch box, whether or not you feel threatened will depend on whether you believe I can carry it out. Whether I will actually carry it out is irrelevant.
  10. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Mar '14 06:54
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]If you really want people to believe the same as you do, then you would do well to try and convince them that your beliefs are correct.

    Perhaps GB doesn't bother because he knows that it's tough sledding pushing his "faith only" dogma - especially with the verse he chose.

    Following is the American Standard Version translation of the same vers ...[text shortened]... I can tell, GB has either used a very uncommon translation or altered one for his own purposes.[/b]
    John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." ASV http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&t=ASV#s=1000036
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    apeitheo #333; Part of Speech: verb Root Word (Etymology) From (G545) Dictionary Aids Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry TDNT Reference: 6:10,818 Outline of Biblical Usage

    1. not to allow one's self to be persuaded
    1. to refuse or withhold belief
    2. to refuse belief and obedience
    2. not to comply with


    KJV Translation Count — Total: 16x The KJV translates Strongs G544 in the following manner: believe not (8x), disobedient (4x), obey not (3x), unbelieving (1x). Thayer's Greek Lexicon Word / Phrase / Strong's Search

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G544
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    Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

    1 Strong's Number: g543 Greek: apeitheia Disobedience, Disobedient: lit., "the condition of being unpersuadable" [a, negative, peitho, "to persuade"], denotes "obstinacy, obstinate rejection of the will of God;" hence, "disobedience;" Eph 2:2; 5:6; Col 3:6, and in the RV of Rom 11:30, 32 and Hbr 4:6, 11 [for AV, "unbelief"], speaking of Israel, past and present. See UNBELIEF.

    1 Adjective Strong's Number: g545 Greek: apeithes Disobedience, Disobedient: akin to A, No. 1, signifies "unwilling to be persuaded, spurning belief, disobedient," Luk 1:17; Act 26:19; Rom 1:30; 2Ti 3:2; Tts 1:16; 3:3.

    Note: In 1Ti 1:9 anupotaktos, "insubordinate, unsubjected" [a, negative, n, euphonic, hupo, "under," tasso, "to order"], is translated "disobedient" in the AV; the RV has "unruly," as in Tts 1:6, 10; in Hbr 2:8, "not subject" (RV), "not put under" (AV). See PUT, UNRULY.

    2 Strong's Number: g3876 Greek: parakoe Disobedience, Disobedient: primarily, "hearing amiss" [para, "aside," akouo, "to hear"], hence signifies "a refusal to hear;" hence, "an act of disobedience," Rom 5:19; 2Cr 10:6; Hbr 2:2. It is broadly to be distinguished from No. 1, as an act from a condition, though parakoe itself is the effect, in transgression, of the condition of failing or refusing to hear. Carelessness in attitude is the precursor of actual "disobedience." In the OT "disobedience" is frequently described as "a refusing to hear," e.g., Jer 11:10; 35:17; cp. Act 7:57. See Trench, Syn. xvi.

    101 Verb Strong's Number: g544 Greek: apeitheo Disobedience, Disobedient: akin to A, No. 1, and B, "to refuse to be persuaded, to refuse belief, to be disobedient," is translated "disobedient," or by the verb "to be disobedient," in the RV of Act 14:2 [AV, "unbelieving"], and Act 19:9 [AV, "believed not"]; it is absent from the most authentic mss. in Act 17:5; in Jhn 3:36 "obeyeth not," RV AV, "believeth not"]; in Rom 2:8 "obey not;" in Rom 10:21, "disobedient;" in Rom 11:30, 31, "were disobedient" [AV, "have not believed"]; so in Rom 15:31; Hbr 3:18; 11:31; in 1Pe 2:8, "disobedient;" so in 1Pe 3:20; in 1Pe 3:1; 4:17, "obey not." In 1Pe 2:7 the best mss. have apisteo, "to disbelieve." See OBEY, B, No. 4, UNBELIEVING.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?topic=VT0000763
    ______________________________________________________

    ThinkOfOne, GB simply asked you to ponder your permanent address for eternity; he is not "pushing his 'faith dogma'" on you or anyone else. Why? Because Christianity cannot be forced on people. Faith alone in Christ alone must be optional.
  11. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Mar '14 07:022 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    When will you figure out that threatening people just doesn't work. Especially when they are empty threats.
    You say belief must be optional, when in reality, belief is based on reason rather than choice. If you really want people to believe the same as you do, then you would do well to try and convince them that your beliefs are correct. Instead you seem intent on convincing us that you are a total nutcase.
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    When will you figure out that threatening people just doesn't work. Especially when they are empty threats.
    You say belief must be optional, when in reality, belief is based on reason rather than choice. If you really want people to believe the same as you do, then you would do well to try and convince them that your beliefs are correct. Instead you seem intent on convincing us that you are a total nutcase.


    "He who believes on the Son, Jesus Christ, has eternal life." (John 3:36a)

    The alternative is:

    "He who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36b) NASB

    twhitehead, these words are from God not GB, whose intent is to provide you with accurate information. What you do with it emotionally or rationally is strictly your business. As stated in the OP: "Please ponder your decision. No need to reply."
  12. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Mar '14 07:10
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    No. It's simply a matter of context.

    The word does not mean simply to obey, but to believe and obey. It is rendered as one or the other, based on context, simply because English has no such word meaning both. Which English word is used is based on context.

    On the other hand, Christians do understand that belief contains an element of obedience. It ...[text shortened]... hat context decides which English word is rendered. It's okay, the JWs don't 'get' this either.
    Yes, Suzi. "The word does not mean simply to obey, but to believe and obey." And "obeyeth not": willful refusal to believe.
  13. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Mar '14 07:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, his threat is an empty threat to those that do not believe him. If I say I will beat you up if you don't give me your lunch box, whether or not you feel threatened will depend on whether you believe I can carry it out. Whether I will actually carry it out is irrelevant.
    Wouldn't it be nice if we could privately share a lunch someday while having an hour long conversation face to face....
  14. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Mar '14 07:32
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]Our Addresses

    Christianity cannot be forced on people; belief in the person and work of Christ must be optional.

    "He who believes on the Son, Jesus Christ, has eternal life." (John 3:36a)

    The alternative is:

    "He who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36b)

    While belief in C ...[text shortened]... manent address for eternity will become occupied. Please ponder your decision. No need to reply.[/b]
    “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
    and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'" -C.S. Lewis.
  15. Cape Town
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    09 Mar '14 07:451 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    twhitehead, these words are from God not GB, whose intent is to provide you with accurate information. What you do with it emotionally or rationally is strictly your business. As stated in the OP: "Please ponder your decision. No need to reply."
    The thing is, GB, I do not believe God exists, nor do I believe you are giving accurate information. Not only do I think you are mistaken about much of what you believe, but I also think you are frequently dishonest in this forum.
    As such, I have no decision to be made.

    If your intention is truly to provide accurate information, then you are going about it all wrong. Please ponder your behaviour. No need to reply.
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