Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby

[b]"The Lamb's Book of Life"

twhitehead;

ThinkOfOne;

RBHILL;

Suzianne;

galveston75;

wolfgang59;

Duchess64;

JS357;

SwissGambit;

FabianFnas;

CalJust;

---Penguin

Great King Rat

Grampy Bobby

All twelve of our names were written ...[text shortened]... us Christ (the names of those will be removed and no longer remembered in Heaven. Rev. 20:15[/b][/b]

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Fourteen.

"The Lamb's Book of Life"

twhitehead;

ThinkOfOne;

RBHILL;

Suzianne;

galveston75;

wolfgang59;

Duchess64;

JS357;

SwissGambit;

FabianFnas;

CalJust;

---Penguin;

Great King Rat;

Russ;

Grampy Bobby;

Did Russ threaten to ban you if you didn't include him?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
All fifteen of our names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life at physical birth and are still written there; and all of us will be together with God sharing His Happiness in Heaven for Eternity, unless any one of us dies without having believed in the Person of Jesus Christ (the names of those will be removed and no longer remembered in Heaven. Rev. 20:15

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby

[b]"The Lamb's Book of Life"

twhitehead;

ThinkOfOne;

RBHILL;

Suzianne;

galveston75;

wolfgang59;

Duchess64;

JS357;

SwissGambit;

FabianFnas;

CalJust;

---Penguin;

Great King Rat;

Russ;

Grampy Bobby;

All fifteen of our names were wr ...[text shortened]... Jesus Christ (the names of those will be removed and no longer remembered in Heaven. Rev. 20:15[/b]

Originally posted by JS357
It's all about this claim of rejecting belief.

Hint: Do the search.

Or start at:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/doxa-vol/

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Did Russ threaten to ban you if you didn't include him?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I'm not sure that heaven is a nice place. I'm not very fond of harps and psalms.
I rather think about nirvana. Can you perhaps arrange for my presence there when my time comes...?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by JS357
Now I repeat the last relevant comment on this thread.

Well, I still find no belief in deity when I introspect. However I am a believer in indirect doxastic voluntarism.

Has none of you the slightest curiosity?
_________________________________________________

Originally posted by JS357
It's all about ...[text shortened]... tely believe we have voluntary control over our beliefs as long as we're conscious and rational.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Guess I'm good then - I believed in all the Jesus stuff for 20 years. And I still believe there was a real person named Jesus back in the day. I just don't think he can offer anyone salvation from anything, what with him being dead for a very long time.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Guess I'm good then - I believed in all the Jesus stuff for 20 years. And I still believe there was a real person named Jesus back in the day. I just don't think he can offer anyone salvation from anything, what with him being dead for a very long time.

"The Empty Tomb": "20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene *came early to the tomb, while it *was still dark, and *saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. 2 So she *ran and *came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and *said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.” 3 So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb. 4 The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; 5 and stooping and looking in, he *saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in. 6 And so Simon Peter also *came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he *saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 So the disciples went away again to their own homes.

11 But Mary was standing outside the tomb weeping; and so, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb; 12 and she *saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 And they *said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She *said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.” 14 When she had said this, she turned around and *saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing Him to be the gardener, she *said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away.” 16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in [a] Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene *came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.

"Jesus among His Disciples": 19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “[b) Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [c] have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called [d] Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 [e] After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been [f] shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

"Why This Gospel Was Written": 30 Therefore many other [g] signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is [h] the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." John 20 New American Standard Bible

Footnotes: a.John 20:16 I.e. Jewish Aramaic; b.John 20:19 Lit Peace to you; c.John 20:23 I.e. have previously been forgiven; d.John 20:24 I.e. the Twin; e.John 20:26 Or A week later; f.John 20:26 Or locked; g.John 20:30 Or attesting miracles; h.John 20:31 I.e. the Messiah

Originally posted by JS357
" I definitely believe we have voluntary control over our beliefs as long as we're conscious and rational."

Thanks.

The above belief would be an example of direct doxastic voluntarism. 🙂

Unless of course, while you were lacking that belief (if you ever did), you chose to go through experiences (studies, discussions, etc.) that you thought might bring about that belief in you. That would be an example of indirect doxastic voluntarism.

Sidebar: "Here's a delightful legend that makes the point very well: I love the old story of the rich man who, on his death bed, negotiated with God to allow him to bring his earthly treasures with him when he came to heaven. God's reaction was that this was a most unusual request, but since this man had been exceptionally faithful, permission was granted to bring along just one suitcase. The time arrived, the man presented himself at the pearly gates, suitcase in hand- BOTH hands, actually, since he had stuffed it with as many bars of gold bullion as would fit. St. Peter said, "Sorry, you know the rules-you can't take it with you." But the man protested, "God said I could … one suitcase." St. Peter checked, found out that this one would be an exception, prepared to let the man enter, then said, "OK, but I will have to examine the contents before you pass." He took the suitcase, opened it, saw the gold bars and asked quizzically, "You broughtReveal Hidden Content

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[bJS, my own pilgrim's progress went from a mild curiosity to an intensifying awareness of the possibility that an all knowing, powerful and knowable personal God existed and always did exist [God Consciousness] to an earnest desire to know Him if He did.[/b]

Originally posted by twhitehead
That does not, to me, sound like you chose to believe. The belief was in fact forced upon you by the evidence or whatever else that caused this 'awareness' in you.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That does not, to me, sound like you chose to believe. The belief was in fact forced upon you by the evidence or whatever else that caused this 'awareness' in you.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by FabianFnas
I'm not sure that heaven is a nice place. I'm not very fond of harps and psalms.
I rather think about nirvana. Can you perhaps arrange for my presence there when my time comes...?

"I'm not very fond of harps and psalms" either. Besides conversation and chess, what else would make it an ideal 'heaven'?