Paul Was Wrong

Originally posted by divegeester
Oh dear, are you suggesting that a belief in a literal god, prevents one accepting the parables, stories and symbolism in the bible.

My post fully answers the question, there is not confusion, only from you and your attempts to squeeze literal,interpretations from parables.

Some may argue that the story is completely a fictitious parable in Luke 16:19-31.
Let me assume that it was for argument's sake.

Tell me then exactly WHAT was meant by the warning of Moses and the prophets in this verse?

"But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." (v.29)

Concerning WHAT is Jesus referring to as a warning that the five brothers should be warned about ?

Is it a warning that all men will die one day ?
The five brothers surely knew that.

Is it a warning that their selfish indulgence and cruelty might be reversed someday ?
But if Jesus KNEW that no such fate could possibly await them once they died, what would be the point of warning them about an impossibility ?

Would you take seriously a solemn warning that a flying elephant will come down your chimney and kidnap you away tonight? Probably not.

Explain what it is the five brothers should be warned about by "Moses and the prophets".

Originally posted by sonship
Some may argue that the story is completely a fictitious parable in [b]Luke 16:19-31.
Let me assume that it was for argument's sake.

Tell me then exactly WHAT was meant by the warning of Moses and the prophets in this verse?

"But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." (v.29)

Concer ...[text shortened]...
Explain what it is the five brothers should be warned about by "Moses and the prophets".[/b]

Did Moses and the Prophets warn people of eternal torment?
If so please quote the references.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did Moses and the Prophets warn people of eternal torment?
If so please quote the references.

The prophets warned that God's judgment could extend beyond this life:

Isaiah 66:24

Daniel 12:2

The accumulative effect of Moses and the prophets was that God's judgment could be "terrible" in righteousness and reach beyond this physical life.

The appropriate way to express it is that God's judgment was so ultimate that it could reach into eternity. It would be lopsided to only say the warning of damnation was all there was to it.

God's reach into the realm beyond death was not always expressed in terms of punishment. Here in Psalm 139 the concept is that nowhere can a man escape having being dealt with by God - including in Sheol [Hades].

" if I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are." (Psalm 139:8)

Originally posted by sonship
The prophets warned that God's judgment could extend beyond this life:

[b]Isaiah 66:24

Daniel 12:2

The accumulative effect of Moses and the prophets was that God's judgment could be "terrible" in righteousness and reach beyond this physical life.

The appropriate way to express it is that God's judgment was so ultimate that it ...[text shortened]... o heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are." (Psalm 139:8) [/b] [/quote][/b]

So there is nothing.
Nothing in the writings of the Apostles
Nothing in Moses
Nothing in the Prophets
Nothing in Davids Psalms
Nothing in Solomons Proverbs.

I guess all these wise and inspired writers does not know as much as you do.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So there is nothing.
Nothing in the writings of the Apostles
Nothing in Moses
Nothing in the Prophets
Nothing in Davids Psalms
Nothing in Solomons Proverbs.

I guess all these wise and inspired writers does not know as much as you do.

So if you don't mention it, it doesn't exist.

Using your logic anything not mentioned by multiple writers really doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So there is nothing.
Nothing in the writings of the Apostles
Nothing in Moses
Nothing in the Prophets
Nothing in Davids Psalms
Nothing in Solomons Proverbs.

I guess all these wise and inspired writers does not know as much as you do.

What was the kind of interpretation that Jesus gave to Isaiah 66:24 ?
Isaiah was one of the major prophets.

Here is where Jesus referred to that Isaiah 66 passage - Mark 9:47,48.

Did His imagery in Luke 16:19-31 suggest His taking judgment after death seriously or frivolously ?

Is there anything in Luke 16 which would indicate that the audience didn't understand something of what He was talking about ?

Originally posted by sonship
What was the kind of interpretation that Jesus gave to [b]Isaiah 66:24 ?
Isaiah was one of the major prophets.

Here is where Jesus referred to that Isaiah 66 passage - Mark 9:47,48.

Did His imagery in Luke 16:19-31 suggest His taking judgment after death seriously or frivolously ?

Is there anything in Luke 16 ...[text shortened]... ld indicate that the audience didn't understand something of what He was talking about ?

Are you forgetting the topic of the thread? Yeah .. you are .. most likely deliberately.

Here it is - Paul and the Apostles were sent to preach to the Gentiles. Where in these teaching were the Gentiles warned of eternal torment for nonbelievers?

Bear in mind that the Gentiles had no bible like we have today. The Jews had their Torah and the Gentiles would have had a Septuagint.

Originally posted by sonship
What was the kind of interpretation that Jesus gave to [b]Isaiah 66:24 ?
Isaiah was one of the major prophets.

Here is where Jesus referred to that Isaiah 66 passage - Mark 9:47,48.

Did His imagery in Luke 16:19-31 suggest His taking judgment after death seriously or frivolously ?

Is there anything in Luke 16 ...[text shortened]... ld indicate that the audience didn't understand something of what He was talking about ?

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24 KJV)

This is saying that nonbelievers will be tormented for all eternity?

"But he said to him, if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will the be persuaded if someone rises from the dead." (Luke 16:31)

Neither will they be persuaded of what?

I think a reasonable interpretation is, for example, be persuaded of the possibility of the following in the teaching just given:

"And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, ... " (v.23a)

if that is excluded, what else would Christ have meant by putting those words into the mouth of Abraham ?

Would it be they might miss the warning that their greed and cruelty might be punished someday ? If so you have to admit that the consequences taught as a central point of the lesson is that they were consequences beyond this physical life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24 KJV)

This is saying that nonbelievers will be tormented for all eternity?

You are answering my question with a question.
Answer it with a statement of your better interpretation of Christ's usage of the reference.

The burden is on you now.
Does the usage of Jesus of the passage suggest non-existence after death or something else ?

Originally posted by sonship

[b] "But he said to him, if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will the be persuaded if someone rises from the dead." (Luke 16:31)

Neither will they be persuaded of what?

I think a reasonable interpretation is, for example, be persuaded of the possibility of the following in the teaching just given:

[qu ...[text shortened]... aught as a central point of the lesson is that they were consequences beyond this physical life.[/b]

Consequences yes.
Suffering yes
Gnashing of teeth yes
eternal torment NO !!

50 years of cruelty and greed
and the punishment is
50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years
And more
of torment?

And its the same torment for all who do not know Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
You are answering my question with a question.
Answer it with a statement of your better interpretation of Christ's usage of the reference.

The burden is on you now.
Does the usage of Jesus of the passage suggest non-existence after death or something else ?

If I had to interpret Isaiah 66, i would say it points directly to Christian Saints who turned their backs on Christ. Those who were given everything, who tasted the world to come, given the Holy Spirit, they trampled the Son of God, they transgressed against Christ. These are the ones who it was better if they were not born, they are in a worse position than if they did not know of Christ in the first place. A sorer punishment than death await these Christians. These will be tormented for a period of time .. certainly not for eternity.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Consequences yes.
Suffering yes
Gnashing of teeth yes
eternal torment NO !!

50 years of cruelty and greed
and the punishment is
50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years
And more
of torment?

And its the same torment for all who do not know Christ.

I have thought about all these things.

Let me ask you. Why do you think the rich man did NOT ask Abraham to set him FREE from his fate? He only requested some relief. Doesn't it seem odd that he didn't instead request total liberation from his fate ?

"Father Abraham, Send Lazarus to get me out of this place."
Oddly, that was not his request.

There is something strange about this. Possibilities are:

The rich man does NOT want to be with God. He just wants to be not suffering for a spell.

The rich man doesn't like his circumstances but recognizes that he willfully got what he chose.

Even if the story is a fictional parable the point still seems that Christ is saying beyond physical death something not good can be experienced. I would not let the science or physics of it dull the impact of that core communication.

After death, he had a sore realization.
He was conscious of it.

Originally posted by sonship
Tell me then exactly WHAT was meant by the warning of Moses and the prophetsin this verse?

I see you've yet again chosen to completely avoid my question.

Originally posted by sonship
The prophets warned that God's judgment could extend beyond this life:

[b]Isaiah 66:24

Daniel 12:2

The accumulative effect of Moses and the prophets was that God's judgment could be "terrible" in righteousness and reach beyond this physical life.

The appropriate way to express it is that God's judgment was so ultimate that it ...[text shortened]... o heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are." (Psalm 139:8) [/b] [/quote][/b]

I see you have chosen once again to ignore his question and reply about something else.