perpetual forgivness

Originally posted by jimmac
WoW, I agree with so much of what you are saying--- yet? I am going out soon so I may not do this justice. The Main thing I think is to remember that we have free will and to remember that yes, this evil does come from the individual and not from God. Will respond more later, have to go.
Thanks for the discussion thus far.
Jim Mc

You disappear?

Originally posted by sonhouse
You disappear?

sorry bout that, will try to continue. Most of what you say is correct,but-

*"you have to judge the religion by its lowest common denominator, how does it treat its women, how does it treat its enemies."

- No - You can only really judge the Christian faith by Christ. People set Bad examples,which is why we need Christ.The fact that Christians are not Christ like is like proof of the freedom of choice we have.No matter how wrong people get it,it doesnt change anything.

*"The fact that a religion HAS enemies is strong evidence there was in fact no contact with a god in the original setting up of the religion".

- I feel that the opposite is true.God is Love. Even Christ had enemies.The teachings of Christ were not popular with everyone which is why he was crucified.Satan is the enemy of God so he will create enemies for God.

*"The way I see it is this: if there were a real heirarchy of religious thought leading to one god then it would not matter which individual was chosen by this god to send out the message.

-I know of no heirarchy other than MAN made.others may dissagree with this.

*"But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where a god did not start these contradictory religions because if it did, they would not kill one another.

-you are right 100%

I am getting nagged of the comp.

please ask any more questions and I will try not to wait for a more educated Christian to answer. I fear my responses may not explain very well.
Jim Mc

Originally posted by jimmac
Christ is the ONLY one without sin. He is The ONLY one that can avoid sinning. That "nobody is perfect" is not an excuse,it is a fact. We are by our very nature sinful. It is impossible to stop sinning.if it were possible then why did Christ die on the Cross.

This conflicts directly with others who claim that we have free will and can choose to sin or not and give that as the reason why God made people capable of sin. How can you claim that God is just while at the same time claim that God made us in such a way that we could not avoid sinning, then he punishes us for that sin.

Originally posted by twhitehead
This conflicts directly with others who claim that we have free will and can choose to sin or not and give that as the reason why God made people capable of sin. How can you claim that God is just while at the same time claim that God made us in such a way that we could not avoid sinning, then he punishes us for that sin.

fair comment, "not avoid" may have been a bit strong. It is in our nature to do what we FEEL is ok. That is often contrary to what God teaches.We are only punished for that sin when we refuse to acknowledge Christ,otherwise we are free of it.

Not sure that sound right, hope so.

Jim mc

Originally posted by sonhouse
This is the part of christianity that I hate the most: The idea we are BORN into sin. What a sinister concept, cleverly designed to trap weak minds into thinking the only way out is to believe in the christian god. Not the Jewish god, not the Islam god, just and only just the christian god. I can't think of any religion in the world more sinister and deviou ...[text shortened]... ligion on such an evil thing the rest of it falls apart and it is just another excuse to kill.

Christianity does not teach that children are "evil". In fact, Christ said that one must come to God as a child in that they have a desire for pureness of heart and the natural tendency to place their faith in something they do not completly understand just as a child is prone to do.

Originally posted by whodey
Christianity does not teach that children are "evil". In fact, Christ said that one must come to God as a child in that they have a desire for pureness of heart and the natural tendency to place their faith in something they do not completly understand just as a child is prone to do.

Tell that to my Pentacostal grandma....,

Originally posted by sonhouse
Tell that to my Pentacostal grandma....,

Show your grandma this verse then, Mark 10:13-15

"And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them, and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said to them, 'Suffer the little children to come to me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily, verily I say to you, Whosoever will not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he will not enter therin."

What parent has to teach their child how to lie? Or be disobedient? Or NOT to share because everything is theirs and the whole world revolves around them and their wants? You don’t have to teach them how; they’ll do it naturally because it’s in their nature. Sin is in a child’s nature, but so is simple faith and trust. God wants us to root sin out of our lives and exercise that simple child-like faith and trust in Him.

Originally posted by masscat
What parent has to teach their child how to lie? Or be disobedient? Or NOT to share because everything is theirs and the whole world revolves around them and their wants? You don’t have to teach them how; they’ll do it naturally because it’s in their nature. Sin is in a child’s nature, but so is simple faith and trust. God wants us to root sin out of our lives and exercise that simple child-like faith and trust in Him.

I would not call that sin, I would call it simple survival traits. Look at chimps, they have a social structure, the young ones will go after what they want regardless of consequenses, yet you don't say chimps are born into sin. So are humans that much lower on the scale than chimps that they are born sinless and we are sinniers from the time of conception? Can't you see the contradiction here?

Originally posted by sonhouse
[b]I would not call that sin

I have given my definition of sin,(against the will of god)what is yours.

Originally posted by jimmac
I have given my definition of sin,(against the will of god)what is yours.

One definition that comes to mind: just the ability or curse of humanity to not live in the present. That is to say, constantly preparing for tomorrow, obsessing on the past, maybe recent past, maybe deep past. A person who has a very low IQ for instance, could not very well be born into sin I would think. Say he is 30 years old and has the mind of a 5 YO. He would be only in the present, would not be wondering about the future or obsessing about the past, as in religion.

Originally posted by sonhouse
[b]One definition that comes to mind: just the ability or curse of humanity to not live in the present. That is to say, constantly preparing for tomorrow, obsessing on the past, maybe recent past, maybe deep past.

That seems to me to be more an attempt at an explanation of a consequense of sin rather than what sin is. What do you feel are some examples of sin?.small sins and big sins?

Originally posted by jimmac
That seems to me to be more an attempt at an explanation of a consequense of sin rather than what sin is. What do you feel are some examples of sin?.small sins and big sins?

Anything that leads you away from God/

Originally posted by Orange Peel
Anything that leads you away from God/

Yes, I think that about covers it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I would not call that sin, I would call it simple survival traits. Look at chimps, they have a social structure, the young ones will go after what they want regardless of consequenses, yet you don't say chimps are born into sin. So are humans that much lower on the scale than chimps that they are born sinless and we are sinniers from the time of conception? Can't you see the contradiction here?

I don’t consider men to be like chimps…the Bible says we were created a little lower than angels. Jesus did not die to save chimps; he died to save me because I was a sinner and could not save myself. But that’s another issue.
Are you saying it’s OK if kids lie, are disobedient, and insist on doing and getting everything they want because they are developing their survival techniques?! I bet there’s a lot of kids that would love to have you for a parent!
🙂