Persecution is a blessing...

Originally posted by TheSkipper

If I manage to get into heaven by the skin of my teeth do i end up being Whodey's janitor?[/b]

Speaking of which, my bathroom is getting a little nasty. I hope its sooner than later. 😛

Originally posted by Rajk999
Exactly. They live the easy life and they want 'reward in heaven' because of imagined persecution. 😀 Its definitely a persecution complex plus a freebie mentality.

I forgot, you're the one who's trying to earn his way into heaven. Go peddle your legalistic bondage elsewhere please.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Exactly. They live the easy life and they want 'reward in heaven' because of imagined persecution. 😀 Its definitely a persecution complex plus a freebie mentality.

So it your theology says that one must do good works to get into heaven how do you explain the theif on the cross that died next to Jesus who reached out to him in faith right before he died and was subsequently saved? What good works did he do to get into heaven?

Originally posted by whodey
So it your theology says that one must do good works to get into heaven how do you explain the theif on the cross that died next to Jesus who reached out to him in faith right before he died and was subsequently saved? What good works did he do to get into heaven?

Good point! Unfortunately Rajk999 doesn't seem to want to hear that.

Originally posted by whodey
So it your theology says that one must do good works to get into heaven how do you explain the theif on the cross that died next to Jesus who reached out to him in faith right before he died and was subsequently saved? What good works did he do to get into heaven?

He did the only good work available to him from the time of his 'coming
to believe': Professed his faith and defended Jesus from an unjust accusation.

Had he survived crucifixion, no doubt he would have been held to the
same standard of service to those in need to which all Christians are called.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
He did the only good work available to him from the time of his 'coming
to believe': Professed his faith and defended Jesus from an unjust accusation.

Had he survived crucifixion, no doubt he would have been held to the
same standard of service to those in need to which all Christians are called.

Nemesio

Well Said Nemesio .

Originally posted by epiphinehas
......Go peddle your legalistic bondage elsewhere please.

Interesting that in a thread, started by yourself, about the alleged tendency for atheists to persecute Christians (which I have yet to see on this site), you think that you have the right to tell me where to post my opinion.

I have never come across an atheist telling me not to post my opinion, however distasteful it might be to them.

As far as I am concerned you are a disgrace and a poor excuse for a Christian. You have failed to demonstrate any Christlike qualities and people like yourself are the reason why many fencesitters shy away from religion. Go read your Bible .... there is an interesting solution Christ had for people like you ... it involves putting millstone around your neck and .......

Originally posted by Nemesio
He did the only good work available to him from the time of his 'coming
to believe': Professed his faith and defended Jesus from an unjust accusation.

Had he survived crucifixion, no doubt he would have been held to the
same standard of service to those in need to which all Christians are called.

Nemesio

Had he survived crucifixion, no doubt he would have been held to the
same standard of service to those in need to which all Christians are called.

You mean, the same standard he was held to prior to being saved? That's exactly what you are saying, that the thief would be held accountable to the law just as he was before he believed. But believers are "justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Rom. 3:28). Your false interpretation of scripture fails to account for grace. Faith saves, not works.

End of story.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Interesting that in a thread, started by yourself, about the alleged tendency for atheists to persecute Christians (which I have yet to see on this site), you think that you have the right to tell me where to post my opinion.

I have never come across an atheist telling me not to post my opinion, however distasteful it might be to them.

As far as I am ...[text shortened]... on Christ had for people like you ... it involves putting millstone around your neck and .......

You actually think a critique of your false theology is persecution?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Your false interpretation of scripture fails to account for grace. Faith saves, not works.

You are such a moron.

Every time you say that, you are also saying that CHRIST IS WRONG.

Originally posted by Nemesio
He did the only good work available to him from the time of his 'coming
to believe': Professed his faith and defended Jesus from an unjust accusation.

Had he survived crucifixion, no doubt he would have been held to the
same standard of service to those in need to which all Christians are called.

Nemesio

I agree with what you say other than your assumption that he defended Christ in any way. Defended him how? All he did was reach out to him in faith. In fact, this is a consistant theme throughout the Bible. For example, Abraham was said to be righteous before God because of his faith in him. Likewise, as Christians we place our faith in Jesus for what he did for us on the cross. Faith is what saves NOT works.

As far as what he would have done had he survived the crucifxion, I think I would go along with this as well. Had he really placed his faith in Christ as he appears to have done then he would have lived his life in a way that was pleasing to his Lord that would have wrought good works of some kind. Unfortunatly, however, he had no oppurtunity for those good works.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are such a moron.

Every time you say that, you are also saying that CHRIST IS WRONG.

Well, every time you say, "works save, not faith," what you are really saying is that Jesus died in vain. "Do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die" (Gal. 2:21).

"You are such a moron." - Rajk999

You have yet to address how you can preach so vociferously that a person must follow Christ's commands for fear of damnation, yet you yourself so liberally transgress Christ's commands...

Is this not the way of the hypocrites? "They preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger" (Matt. 23:3-4).

Why don't you explain yourself.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
You mean, the same standard he was held to prior to being saved? That's exactly what you are saying, that the thief would be held accountable to the law just as he was before he believed.

No, that's not what I am saying. I'm saying that while hanging on the cross, he came to believe in
Jesus. As a good follower of Jesus, he began doing good works as an indicator of his faith. Sadly,
because he was hanging on the cross, there wasn't much for him to do. So, he rebuked the other
thief and proclaimed his devotion to Jesus.

Had he survived, he would have been expected to do all of the works as indicators of his faith that
are detailed in St Matthew's Gospel (feed the hungry, comfort the afflicted, &c) within the limitations
of his capacity (those who are able to do much have much expected of them, those with severe limitations
will have less expected of them).

But believers are "justified by faith [b]apart from works of the law" (Rom. 3:28). Your false interpretation of scripture fails to account for grace. Faith saves, not works.[/b]

Faith cannot exist apart from works. 'End of story.'

Nemesio

Originally posted by whodey
I agree with what you say other than your assumption that he defended Christ in any way. Defended him how? All he did was reach out to him in faith.

This is not correct. The other thief demanded something inappropriate of Jesus. The 'good thief'
rebuked the 'bad thief.' 'Defense' was perhaps not the best word, but I intended it to mean 'defended'
Jesus' decision to remain on the cross.

In fact, this is a consistant theme throughout the Bible. For example, Abraham was said to be righteous before God because of his faith in him. Likewise, as Christians we place our faith in Jesus for what he did for us on the cross. Faith is what saves NOT works.

Faith cannot exist without works. It is not possible. There is no such thing as a Christian who does
not strive to do his utmost within his capacity for his neighbor.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]You mean, the same standard he was held to prior to being saved? That's exactly what you are saying, that the thief would be held accountable to the law just as he was before he believed.

No, that's not what I am saying. I'm saying that while hanging on the cross, he came to believe in
Jesus. As a good f ...[text shortened]... ves, not works.[/b]

Faith cannot exist apart from works. 'End of story.'

Nemesio[/b]

Faith cannot exist apart from works.

Of course it can. Perhaps the thief had his tongue removed prior to being crucified. In his heart he believed, yet he could not produce any works to make his faith apparent. If what you claim is correct, then his faith could not exist.

"And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

---------------------

You and Rajk999 are claiming that the righteousness that comes from God depends on works, but that is simply backwards.

There is a difference between the self-righteousness that comes from the law, and the righteousness that comes from faith apart from the law.

"Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith" (Philippians 3:9).

If the righteousness from God depends on faith, then it does not depend on works. If reconciliation and peace with God depended on works, then "grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6).

We are almost saying the same thing, you just have it backwards. Faith is not dependent on works, works are dependent on faith: "Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law" (Rom. 3:31).