25 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasdid you notice that all your quotations to prove your point here or in any other thread is from St. Pauls writtings?
I love how posts can transform into something indistinguishable from its intent. Such is life, I guess. So be it. 🙂
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasA moron is a stupid person.
Well, every time you say, "works save, not faith," what you are really saying is that Jesus died in vain. "Do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die" (Gal. 2:21).
[b]"You are such a moron." - Rajk999
You have yet to address how you can preach so vo ...[text shortened]... ng to move them with their finger" (Matt. 23:3-4).
Why don't you explain yourself.[/b]
BOTH faith and works are important.
CHrist died so that people would have a chance at eternal life.
Thats the GRACE part. The free gift is the death of CHrist.
Thats the part given by God. He gave is son to die so that we can have a chance at salvation. The next step is up to you.
But you cannot get eternal life by simply saying 'I believe'.
You have to believe and do good works.
You keep quoting Paul, and you keep misinterpreting him.
CHrist is the judge and HE said you must do good works.
Up to now you quote a bunch of verses from Paul but you cannot dispute that Christ said HE is judging by works in Matt 25. Only believers who do good works will be in the kingdom.
Read Matt 25 again.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by doodinthemoodThats ridiculous !!!
"Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven" - Luke 18:22.
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How could Christ tell a believer that he is lacking anything. Chist obviously does not know about salvation through grace. Pity he did not read the writings of Paul.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999It is astounding to me that you miss the whole point of Christ's purpose. But now I understand why you see faith as a trifle compared to works: somewhere along the line you have made the error of thinking that the works which Christ demands of us are based in our own efforts. It is obvious because of your cynicism, hypocrisy, and use of guilt and condemnation that the Spirit of God is not leading you. Thus, you misinterpret Christ's demands as being something which we must perform in order to be accepted by God, a teaching contrary to scripture.
A moron is a stupid person.
BOTH faith and works are important.
CHrist died so that people would have a chance at eternal life.
Thats the GRACE part. The free gift is the death of CHrist.
Thats the part given by God. He gave is son to die so that we can have a chance at salvation. The next step is up to you.
But you cannot get eternal life by simpl ...[text shortened]... orks in Matt 25. Only believers who do good works will be in the kingdom.
Read Matt 25 again.
Scripture teaches that we are reconciled to God through faith, "we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
What does it mean to be justified? What does it mean to have peace with God? "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8). God knew all our evil deeds before the foundation of the world, both past and future, and yet he died for us, declaring us righteous through faith.
Is this reconciliation permanent, or was Christ's sacrifice imperfect? Hebrews chapter 10 tells us that it is a perfect sacrifice, contrasting it with the animal sacrifices of the past: "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God . . . For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified" (Heb. 12,14).
Note, those who are being sanctified have already been perfected!
And who are these people who are being sanctified? Everyone who has a genuine faith in Jesus Christ. What do all genuine believers receive? The Holy Spirit, and it is He who sanctifies: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit" (2 Thess. 2:13). What does sanctification mean? It means, 'to make holy; to purify or free from sin; to make productive of and conducive to spiritual blessing'.
"If while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life" (Rom. 5:10).
You see, the works which Christ calls us to are not arrived at through our own efforts, but through the power of the Holy Spirit (the "life" of Christ). Believers do not labor under condemnation, instead we labor under God's love and eternal acceptance, "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life" (John 5:24). "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1).
If it is not ourselves who perform the works, then what are we to do? The answer is simple: abide in Christ. "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:4-5).
If it is our works which save us, then every one who performs works in Christ's name would be accepted, right? That is clearly not the case: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7:22-23).
You say "works, works, works", and fail to specify the most important distinction of the works you are talking about; that is, they must be directed by and carried out in the power of the Holy Spirit. Only then can it be said that a believer is doing what Christ deems, "the will of my Father" (Matt. 7:21).
So stop with the condemnations and the attempts to guilt. If you were actually speaking the Truth you would not be using such tactics. Those who truly do 'the will of the Father' do not do so out of fear of condemnation, and therefore do not preach fear and condemnation. I rejoice because I am complete in Christ, having peace and reconciliation with God through Him. Your attempts to undermine that are laughable.
You would be wise to remember this scripture:
"If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing" (1 Cor. 13:3).
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyWho knows? Maybe he was stealing to feed the poor. Maybe he saved someone's life one time.
So it your theology says that one must do good works to get into heaven how do you explain the theif on the cross that died next to Jesus who reached out to him in faith right before he died and was subsequently saved? What good works did he do to get into heaven?
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehas
Of course it can. Perhaps the thief had his tongue removed prior to being crucified. In his heart he believed, yet he could not produce any works to make his faith apparent. If what you claim is correct, then his faith could not exist.
It's amazing how you utterly ignore the letter to St James which specifically says that faith without
works is dead. Had the thief not had a tongue, then he would have confessed to Jesus in his heart
or done what little he could do. That is, whatever works are available to a mute man hanging on a
cross.
You and Rajk999 are claiming that the righteousness that comes from God depends on works, but that is simply backwards.
I am NOT claiming that. Find a single sentence in which I claim this or back down from this repeated
false assertion. I said that works are a necessary outward sign of a faithful individual. So, a hale
person who does not help the poor is necessarily not a person of faith.
Nemesio
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasYou do not understand the spirit of the teachings of CHrist.
It is astounding to me that you miss the whole point of Christ's purpose. But now I understand why you see faith as a trifle compared to works: somewhere along the line you have made the error of thinking that the works which Christ demands of us are based in our own efforts. It is obvious because of your cynicism, hypocrisy, and use of guilt and conde ...[text shortened]... dn’t love others, I would have gained nothing" (1 Cor. 13:3).
You are like the Pharisees who love to quote scripture without understanding its purpose.
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26 Jul 07
Works are a result of faith. We are saved by grace through faith.
Rom 4:2-6
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
(NKJ)
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26 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasInteresting post. When the early church was persecuted it was scattered but grew! I think persecution will be upon this country soon. Satan has used persecution throughout the world, but here in the US, pleasures and pressures seem to work just fine. It keeps people, including Christians away from the ongoing spiritual battle. Distractions and/or pressures like mismanaged debt bring great pressure. 🙂
There has been an awful lot of talk around atheist water-coolers lately, about how faith has had it too easy for too long now and that it is high time that the freethinkers of the world unite in order to make it infinitely more socially taboo for believers to express their views publicly, or to hold their views at all.
The degree of such ostracization ...[text shortened]... n.
"Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
26 Jul 07
4 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterI've heard it said that some Christian congregations in significantly poorer countries pray a curious prayer for American Christians, asking God to send us hard times as opposed to prosperity. Why? Because they say it's easier to live closer to God without all the distractions of wealth. America is the envy of the world for our wealth and success (Iraq aside), yet there is a humble church in Africa somewhere which pities us for the burden of our great prosperity, even amid their own terrible hardships. Amazing.
Interesting post. When the early church was persecuted it was scattered but grew! I think persecution will be upon this country soon. Satan has used persecution throughout the world, but here in the US, pleasures and pressures seem to work just fine. It keeps people, including Christians away from the ongoing spiritual battle. Distractions and/or pressures like mismanaged debt bring great press
(I think I read that in Tommy Tenney's, God Chasers.)
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26 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasIt's understandable...the average Christian seems to turn to the Lord mostly during hard times, including myself, I'm ashamed to say.. I see it all the time in friends, etc. But it has helped me grow, in character and faith. I am so thankful for God's mercy and grace....🙂
I've heard it said that some Christian congregations in significantly poorer countries pray a curious prayer for American Christians, asking God to send us hard times as opposed to prosperity. Why? Because they say it's easier to live closer to God without all the distractions of wealth. America is the envy of the world for our wealth and success (Iraq ...[text shortened]... terrible hardships. Amazing.
(I think I read that in Tommy Tenney's, God Chasers.)