Phikokalia's Virtue Oriented World

Originally posted by @philokalia
And grandpa FMF is out there thinking the discussion is still about Muh Rights and failing to see what is in front of him.

I have never met anyone in Indonesia who talks about "Muh rights" and I do not think I am failing to see what in front of me here in this fledgeling civil society and democracy only 20 years down the road from a military dictatorship. I am not failing to see what is in front of me.

Originally posted by @philokalia
The President of the US had people being physically assaulted at his campaign rallies by far leftists.

What does this have to do with me?

Originally posted by @fmf
What does this have to do with me?

It has everything to do with the way that "freedoms" and "rights" function in unhinged societies.

Which is the natural course of humanist "rights" oriented societies.

Tell me, do you support the right to believe in zero immigration and in maintaining a homogeneous society?

Do you believe in the right to refuse to cater gay weddings?

Do you believe that you have a right to encourage your own kid to not be gay?

See, we are heading towards a situation where people are losing their livelihoods and being ostracized for believing any of the above.

By not confronting thst, you aren't winning the argument.

You're avoiding reading reality.

Just like a Muh Rights guy does.

Originally posted by @philokalia
People talk about "Freedom of Speech" like it is actually relevant in terms like the King of England is going to descend from his throne and put you in the gaol for criticizing his tax on wheat.

There was no real freedom of speech or freedom of the press under the Soeharto regime. Although the situation is undoubtedly still imperfect, there is considerably more real and substantial freedom of speech or freedom of the press now and this is not only good for political and social discourse, it also has created a new reality in terms of accountability and scrutiny for politicians. I assume you welcome this.

Originally posted by @philokalia
It has everything to do with the way that "freedoms" and "rights" function in unhinged societies.

Which is the natural course of humanist "rights" oriented societies.

Tell me, do you support the right to believe in zero immigration and in maintaining a homogeneous society?

Do you believe in the right to refuse to cater gay weddings?

Do you ...[text shortened]... winning the argument.

You're avoiding reading reality.

Just like a Muh Rights guy does.

Try again. The President of the US having people being physically assaulted at his campaign rallies by far leftists has what to do with me?

Originally posted by @philokalia
Tell me, do you support the right to believe in zero immigration and in maintaining a homogeneous society?

I certainly support the right to believe it and also to speak out about it. I would work for or with people in that society who sought to overturn such a policy.

Originally posted by @philokalia
Do you believe in the right to refuse to cater gay weddings?

Yes, I do.

Originally posted by @philokalia
Do you believe that you have a right to encourage your own kid to not be gay?

I would not condone the government interfering in the raising of children or abrogating the rights of parents aside from when the child's health or life is threatened. It's been discussed here several times.

Originally posted by @philokalia
See, we are heading towards a situation where people are losing their livelihoods and being ostracized for believing any of the above.

So? What does that have to do with me exactly?

Originally posted by @philokalia
You're avoiding reading reality.

Just like a Muh Rights guy does.

I live and work smack bang in the middle of reality. What rights and freedoms that ordinary people have secured here in Indonesia in the last 20 years would you seek to reverse - in reality?

So FMF is a typical classical liberal.

So, now that the USA is basically moving very quickly away from thes norms and rights, why are you acting confused about what I am saying?

Moreover, what do you think about Britain? I am not sure where you are originally from... But that may be infinitely more relevant to you.

Originally posted by @fmf
I live and work smack bang in the middle of reality. What rights and freedoms that ordinary people have secured here in Indonesia in the last 20 years would you seek to reverse - in reality?

Ummmm nothing.

I insist that it is perilous to think in terms of entitlements and Westernizing themselves.

Just like how the UK established its "freedom of speech" policy in 1998 with very little meaning, whatever "rights" they chooe to define for themselves become revocable and ephemeral things.

I wouldn't even say that the alternative is necessarily better.

I would say that, whether or not your government has bothered to speak in terms of rights is surprisingly irrelevant.

In a good society the right of a man to speak and to do as he pleases within reason is respected.

It doesn't matter what authorities say.

And, in other societies thst they call "free" and have "rights" in, they will send Tommy Robinson to prison for thirteen months for having a camera outside of a courthouse and speaking out against rape.

So what Good are the "rights" here?

Originally posted by @philokalia
So, now that the USA is basically moving very quickly away from thes norms and rights, why are you acting confused about what I am saying?

I am not confused by what you are doing. What you are doing is plain to see. You are selecting things you don't like - and which are nothing to do with me - and trying to hold me responsible for them.