Romans 9
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
Many claim that predestination is rooted in God's knowledge of the future. They claim God knew what Esau's works would be but this is not what Paul says. Paul claims that election is not based on works but simply on God's choice.
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyOnly horrible and unfair to those who live by the flesh.
Either God is sovereign or God is not. The doctrine of predestination--depending on where you stand--either humbles us and gives all the glory to God, or seems horrible and unfair.
27 May 18
Originally posted by @eladarKnowing what the future will hold does not mean there is no free will.
Romans 9
[b]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
Many claim that predestination is rooted in God's knowledge of ...[text shortened]... not what Paul says. Paul claims that election is not based on works but simply on God's choice.[/b]
Naturally, the notion that God can give free will but still know the future seems contradictory, but I think God found a way....assuming he is all powerful and all knowing, that is.
27 May 18
Originally posted by @whodeyBut what you are describing is not how Paul describes it.
Knowing what the future will hold does not mean there is no free will.
Naturally, the notion that God can give free will but still know the future seems contradictory, but I think God found a way....assuming he is all powerful and all knowing, that is.
27 May 18
Originally posted by @eladarThat is right. And that is an interesting passage to cite about this -- not one of the ones I am most familiar with.
Romans 9
[b]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
Many claim that predestination is rooted in God's knowledge of ...[text shortened]... not what Paul says. Paul claims that election is not based on works but simply on God's choice.[/b]
I fully endorse the Orthodox position of compatibilism.
We have free will because we do not know the future, yet the future is determined. This is a highly confusing and difficult discussion and would love to have it at length but I do have to always preface this by saying that it brings up major theodicy issues but I am ready to take on that.
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27 May 18
Originally posted by @philokaliaI think Suzy Q had a very interesting post about this subject in another thread.
That is right. And that is an interesting passage to cite about this -- not one of the ones I am most familiar with.
I fully endorse the Orthodox position of compatibilism.
We have free will because we do not know the future, yet the future is determined. This is a highly confusing and difficult discussion and would love to have it at length but ...[text shortened]... s preface this by saying that it brings up major theodicy issues but I am ready to take on that.