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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. 27 May '18 13:43 / 1 edit
    Romans 9

    Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]


    Many claim that predestination is rooted in God's knowledge of the future. They claim God knew what Esau's works would be but this is not what Paul says. Paul claims that election is not based on works but simply on God's choice.
  2. Subscriber Tom Wolsey
    Aficionado of Prawns
    27 May '18 15:26
    Either God is sovereign or God is not. The doctrine of predestination--depending on where you stand--either humbles us and gives all the glory to God, or seems horrible and unfair.
  3. 27 May '18 16:05
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    Either God is sovereign or God is not. The doctrine of predestination--depending on where you stand--either humbles us and gives all the glory to God, or seems horrible and unfair.
    Only horrible and unfair to those who live by the flesh.
  4. 27 May '18 16:28
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Romans 9

    [b]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]



    Many claim that predestination is rooted in God's knowledge of ...[text shortened]... not what Paul says. Paul claims that election is not based on works but simply on God's choice.[/b]
    Knowing what the future will hold does not mean there is no free will.

    Naturally, the notion that God can give free will but still know the future seems contradictory, but I think God found a way....assuming he is all powerful and all knowing, that is.
  5. 27 May '18 16:57
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Knowing what the future will hold does not mean there is no free will.

    Naturally, the notion that God can give free will but still know the future seems contradictory, but I think God found a way....assuming he is all powerful and all knowing, that is.
    But what you are describing is not how Paul describes it.
  6. 27 May '18 23:23
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Romans 9

    [b]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]



    Many claim that predestination is rooted in God's knowledge of ...[text shortened]... not what Paul says. Paul claims that election is not based on works but simply on God's choice.[/b]
    That is right. And that is an interesting passage to cite about this -- not one of the ones I am most familiar with.

    I fully endorse the Orthodox position of compatibilism.

    We have free will because we do not know the future, yet the future is determined. This is a highly confusing and difficult discussion and would love to have it at length but I do have to always preface this by saying that it brings up major theodicy issues but I am ready to take on that.
  7. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    27 May '18 23:27
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    That is right. And that is an interesting passage to cite about this -- not one of the ones I am most familiar with.

    I fully endorse the Orthodox position of compatibilism.

    We have free will because we do not know the future, yet the future is determined. This is a highly confusing and difficult discussion and would love to have it at length but ...[text shortened]... s preface this by saying that it brings up major theodicy issues but I am ready to take on that.
    I think Suzy Q had a very interesting post about this subject in another thread.