1. Standard memberdj2becker
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    01 Sep '05 08:171 edit
    I believe that predestination can be explained with the following analogy:

    Each and every person has to come to two doors. On the one door is written "life" and on the other door in written "death". Each person has to chose which door they would like to enter. If one person enters the door on which is written "life" they will find the inscription on the back of the same door saying, "you have been chosen". If one person choses to enter the door on which is written "death" they will find the inscription on the back of the door saying, "you have been condemned". I also believe that there is a huge warning sign attached to the door of "death".

    2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    I believe that the way of entering the door of life is only through Jesus Christ.

    John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    I also believe that the only way that I can enter this door is by realising that I am a sinner and need salvation. This I believe brings forth repentance if I humble myself, confess my sin and repent from my evil ways.

    2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    I could go into more details of repentance and salvation later on, but I believe it is available to everybody.
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    01 Sep '05 08:371 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I believe that predestination can be explained with the following analogy:

    Each and every person has to come to two doors. On the one door is written "life" and on the other door in written "death". Each person has to chose which door they would like to enter. If one person enters the door on which is written "life" they will find the inscription ...[text shortened]... o more details of repentance and salvation later on, but I believe it is available to everybody.
    i don't get it. those quotes you are using all seem to indicate that we have a free choice. where does the predestination part come in? where does it say that god prejudges man?

    not willing that any should perish...

    this sounds to me like, err..., he is not willing that any should perish. so why do you say that the door of death will have a sign saying that the person entering has been condemned? if the act of condemning occurs as the person willfully walks through the door, then that is not predestination as i understand the term.

    honestly i am confused by your post; i'm not just trying to be thick-headed. i am just wondering when you think the act of condemnation occurs -- before the person even reaches the doors, or during the act of opening and walking through the door of death? if you say before, i don't think any of the scripture you have quoted supports that claim.
  3. Standard memberdj2becker
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    01 Sep '05 09:391 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    i don't get it. those quotes you are using all seem to indicate that we have a free choice. where does the predestination part come in? where does it say that god prejudges man?

    [b]not willing that any should perish...


    this sounds to me like, err..., he is not willing that any should perish. so why do you say that the door of death will h ...[text shortened]... th? if you say before, i don't think any of the scripture you have quoted supports that claim.[/b]
    i don't get it. those quotes you are using all seem to indicate that we have a free choice. where does the predestination part come in? where does it say that god prejudges man?

    You're right, I suppose I didn't make it very clear. What I mean say is that we are all predestined to choose. We have to choose while we are on earth. In other words, where we are going to spend eternity is determined here and now while we are still alive on earth and it depends on the choices we make. I have likened the choices we make to doors that we open. We are predestined to open doors, but the doors that we open depend on us, we have the free-will to choose. I am not saying that God decides before hand who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. He has given us a free-will to make choices, and the choices that we make will ultimately determine where we will spend eternity. In other words we are predestined to either spend eternity in heaven or in hell depending on the choices that we make. I believe God has chosen everybody. But some people do not wish to be chosen. Thus God will not touch their free-will, but the outcome of their choice stands.

    Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    But I still believe that even if man turns his back on God, God will continue to persue a person in his infinite love. But I believe that once a person has hardened his heart there is not much hope left for such a person.

    Hebrews 3:13 - But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    Hebrews 3:15 - While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.


    i am just wondering when you think the act of condemnation occurs -- before the person even reaches the doors, or during the act of opening and walking through the door of death? if you say before, i don't think any of the scripture you have quoted supports that claim.

    I think the act of condemnation occurs when a person dies.

    Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
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    01 Sep '05 09:45
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I am not saying that God decides before hand who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
    Then he isn't omniscient?
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    01 Sep '05 09:46
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Then he isn't omniscient?
    That would be his secretary.
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    01 Sep '05 09:49
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    That would be his secretary.
    Ahh, you mean Jesus, his right hand man?
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    01 Sep '05 09:50
    Originally posted by dj2becker

    I think the act of condemnation occurs when a person dies.
    okay, thanks for the clarification. that all seems reasonable based on my readings of the bible.

    initially i thought you were using predestination in the calvinist sense, but it's clear that you have a different view of 'predestination'. i don't think the bible supports the calvinist view at all.
  8. Standard memberdj2becker
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    01 Sep '05 09:55
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Then he isn't omniscient?
    How so?
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    01 Sep '05 10:01
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    How so?
    Being omniscient entails knowing all there is to know, past, present and future. He would already be aware of who is and who isn't going to hell. Since he knows this and it is all predestined, how is it a choice for us?

    If you claim we have that choice, then you are also claiming god is not omniscient.
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    01 Sep '05 10:03
    I'd like to hear some justification for the Calvinist viewpoint. I'd offer some myself but I can't think of any.
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    01 Sep '05 10:11
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'd like to hear some justification for the Calvinist viewpoint. I'd offer some myself but I can't think of any.
    Is that anything to do with Calvin and Hobbes?
  12. Standard memberHalitose
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    01 Sep '05 10:13
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Being omniscient entails knowing all there is to know, past, present and future. He would already be aware of who is and who isn't going to hell. Since he knows this and it is all predestined, how is it a choice for us?

    If you claim we have that choice, then you are also claiming god is not omniscient.
    He is omniscient but not omnibenevolent. If he was omnibenevolent all murders, rapists and er... ehm.. (*Halitose takes aim and lobs boulder at hornets nest*) fornicators would be assured of a place in heaven. We get what we choose.
  13. Standard memberdj2becker
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    01 Sep '05 10:13
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Being omniscient entails knowing all there is to know, past, present and future. He would already be aware of who is and who isn't going to hell. Since he knows this and it is all predestined, how is it a choice for us?

    If you claim we have that choice, then you are also claiming god is not omniscient.
    God knows the outcome of each persons choice. But we are not pawns on a chess board. We have to choose.

    I believe that each person is confronted with the choice of either accepting the Son of God or rejecting Him. The fact that God knows the outcome of our choice does not in any way affect our free-will.
  14. Standard memberHalitose
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    01 Sep '05 10:15
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'd like to hear some justification for the Calvinist viewpoint. I'd offer some myself but I can't think of any.
    Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
  15. Standard memberHalitose
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    01 Sep '05 10:18
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Is that anything to do with Calvin and Hobbes?
    John Calvin the Reformer of Geneva (and Father of America - that being because most of the early colonists were Calvinists).
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