primates with moral sence, empathy and fairness

Originally posted by googlefudge
God works by magic, sort of by definition.

God is supernatural, and to claim that something was created by god is to claim it was
created supernaturally... by magic.


If god created nothing by magic then god created nothing.

To believe in a creator god requires that you believe at some point god 'waved his magic wand'
and poofed stuff into ...[text shortened]... he laws of physics ever since you are still claiming that the universe was
created by magic.

Satan does magic. God does miracles!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle

Originally posted by RJHinds
Satan does magic. [b]God does miracles!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle[/b]

It's all magic of one kind or another.

It's all supernatural causes (magic) rather than natural causes following the laws of nature (physics).

Originally posted by Suzianne
I should have seen this coming.

No, I disagree. (Oh, really, Suzi? 🙂 )

Quantum Mechanics alone should tell you that this is not true (or, rather, that it doesn't have to be true). Simultaneous universes running at the same time, with the invalid, or unchosen, ones collapsing can take care of this. Suddenly the universe we experience becomes a lot less "deterministic". Free Will, as a concept and as a reality, survives.

You are confusing my meaning.

I wasn't saying that you believed in a universe which was deterministic which had no free will.


I was saying that if you claim that the universe was created by god at the point of the big bang
singularity and that at that point it was destined to end up the way it is now with us all
predetermined then that universe would logically HAVE to be deterministic and with no free will.

Any universe that is set in motion where god knows what will happen in it must inevitably be deterministic.

A non-deterministic universe where free will is possible must be unpredictable, even to god.

Thus for god to have directed the universe to any desired outcome god can't have just set it up at the
beginning and let it run. God would have to interfere with it to direct and guide it to the outcome he
desired.


So IF you believe in free will then
either
god created the universe and then just sat back and watched without ever interfering with it (deism)
or
god created the universe and then nudged and poked it over time to send it in the direction god wanted.


If you go for the deism option then there is absolutely no reason to suppose that that god even knows we exist
let alone does anything upon our deaths.

If you go for the interfering god then you must believe that god didn't just magically, supernatural, created the universe
but then magically and supernaturally tweaked and altered it as time went on.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well that may be true but why would I feel any differently as I just asked for proof which is all I want and something I've never seen presented in regards to evolution.

This thread is discussing some similarities between animals and humans and that is a fact on some things. But that proves nothing other then the creator made all life from his plans ad no connection what so ever then we would have a difficult time coexisting with any of them.

"This thread is discussing some similarities between animals and humans and that is a fact on some things. (But that proves nothing other then the creator made all life from his plans) and that we could enjoy and coexist with all life,"

Could you please highlight the text either in this thread, or outwith it where I can find this proof?

Originally posted by googlefudge
It's all magic of one kind or another.

It's all supernatural causes (magic) rather than natural causes following the laws of nature (physics).

But magic is associated with Satan the Devil involving sorcery and witchcraft. This is what the Pharaoh's magicians did in response to the miracle powers given to Moses by God. Although they both appear amazing, magic and miracles are from different sources. Miracles are from God alone. HalleluYah !!!

P.S. Magic is a deception.

Originally posted by RJHinds
But magic is associated with Satan the Devil involving sorcery and witchcraft. This is what the Pharaoh's magicians did in response to the miracle powers given to Moses by God. Although they both appear amazing, magic and miracles are from different sources. Miracles are from God alone. HalleluYah !!!

P.S. Magic is a deception.

You are playing semantics.


I am defining anything the works supernaturally or is caused by a supernatural entity to work by magic.

God is supernatural and not natural, thus anything god does is magic.


All you are saying is that god's magic is more powerful than anyone else's and trying to give it a different
name.


I don't care if it's more powerful than anyone else's magic, it's still magic. It doesn't work by the laws of nature
Thus it is magic.

If you want to privately define magic to mean something different then fine but that is not the meaning being used
here in this discussion.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You are confusing my meaning.

I wasn't saying that you believed in a universe which was deterministic which had no free will.


I was saying that if you claim that the universe was created by god at the point of the big bang
singularity and that at that point it was destined to end up the way it is now with us all
predetermined then that univer ...[text shortened]... the universe
but then magically and supernaturally tweaked and altered it as time went on.

You hurt my head, GF, I swear.

I'll come back to this.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You are playing semantics.


I am defining anything the works supernaturally or is caused by a supernatural entity to work by magic.

God is supernatural and not natural, thus anything god does is magic.


All you are saying is that god's magic is more powerful than anyone else's and trying to give it a different
name.


I don't care if it' ...[text shortened]... ing different then fine but that is not the meaning being used
here in this discussion.

I am saying "Magic" is deception from Satan.
"Miracles" are real and true and from God.

They are both from the supernatural.
God does not perform "Magic" since it is a lie.
God can not lie by His very super nature.

erased

Originally posted by jaywill
What has gone wrong that we supposed descendents of such primates are poised on the push of a botton to destroy each other and the entire invironment too ?

Which did Evolution produce fairness or a mad urge to totally destroy each other ?

C'mon, jaywill, you know the answer to this.

Evolution produced neither. What went wrong was Satan deceiving Eve and Adam's resultant fall.

Originally posted by Suzianne
C'mon, jaywill, you know the answer to this.

Evolution produced neither. What went wrong was Satan deceiving Eve and Adam's resultant fall.

Occasionally, I just want to hear some rational for other faiths.

Originally posted by jaywill
Occasionally, I just want to hear some rational for other faiths.

Sorry.

Do carry on. 😀

Originally posted by jaywill
Occasionally, I just want to hear some rational for other faiths.

Neither science nor atheism is a faith.

Do you want to here the scientific view or do you just want to hear the views of other theists?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Neither science nor atheism is a faith.

Do you want to here the scientific view or do you just want to hear the views of other theists?

So you don't have faith in science or Atheism? HalleluYah !!!

Originally posted by RJHinds
So you don't have faith in science or Atheism? HalleluYah !!!

The answer to this question is “no” -because no faith needed.
This is clearly what was implied by what he just said which was “Neither science nor atheism is a faith. “.

Only reason and evidence is needed. One does not need “faith” that, for example, that the Earth is round and not flat and that's because science has proven the earth to be round and not flat via evidence/reason.
Science is just knowledge gained through sound reason and gathered/observed evidence so no faith needed for science.

The same goes for atheism which is actually the absence of a certain belief but, in the case of atheist, make sure you add Occam's razor to the sound reasoning as well as the principle, just like with science, of the rejection of unfalsifiable hypotheses ( i.e. ones that cannot be proven false even if they are false ) on the bases of such unfalsifiable hypotheses being totally useless.