Pro-Life?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so you think its better for child victim of rape, despite their trauma to go through pregnancy and labour and then all the rest that goes on after rather than take a morning after pill which at that stage isnt much more than a sperm and egg. two things that the human body gets rid of on a regular basis.
hows the church on masturbation these days. is it okay to bash the old bishop?

I believe that is left up to the individual. The general rule I believe is
that if something appears to be sinning to you don't do it. You don't
want to feel guilty about it later.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe that is left up to the individual. The general rule I believe is
that if something appears to be sinning to you don't do it. You don't
want to feel guilty about it later.

D E E P

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how to you get from, abortion is premeditated murder of innocents, to, abortion is ok,
can someone please explain the thought process to me.

Do you mean that (P) "Premeditated murder of an innocent!" is a good definition of "abortion?"

Now I will expain that (P) is not more than an opinion. I this stage I don't care if abortion is good or bad, just that the definition is bad.

What is murder? Murder is a legal term, right? So wherever we use the legal term murder, we use the legal definition of the term.
Wikipedia says: "Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter)." 'Another human', is a phetus included here? If so, then a lot of consequeces follows. Does a phetus have exaclty the same rights as any other human? I think not, as many other think too.
If we use the legal term 'murder', then we should let a judge decide, according to the current law, if we have a murderer, and if so, who. How murders the phetus? The mother, the doctor, everyone consenting the abortion? I don't think a judge will sentence anyone to murder of a phetus if abortion is legal in this country or state.

As 'murder' is a legal term, then the law defines it very well. However, there are different laws in different countries and different states and different times and different cultures about the subject. Just to kill another human being isn't always murder. Self defence is one exception. Killings in war is another. And so on. Meaning that even using the word 'murder' isn't especially globally well defined.

That's why the definition is a bad definition.

And now I'll tell you why I say "according to this definition (P) abortion is okay".
Because when you use legal terms, then you rely that legal people, like judges, knows the defintion of 'murder' very well. A judge doesn't have any opinions, he just uses the law as it is written. According to the law abortion isn't murder (in some states, I don't know exactly which). Therefore abortion is okay. From the view of the pregnant woman it is a good action in some respect, or else she wouldn't do it.

Why I wanted a good definition about 'abortion', and not only further opinions, is that if we agree what abortion really is and what it is not, then we can have a meaningful and healthy discussion. See?

When I know that we are talking about the same thing, then I can state my opinion, and you yours. But until then I don't want to state mine.

Originally posted by JS357
Try

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2091

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002912.htm

http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=143

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/abortion/glossary_em.htm



This thread would be more likely to give you want you are asking for if it was in Science.



Also: "He Who Defines the Terms Controls the Argument"

http://www.justabovesunset.com/id1362.html

I thank you very much for the links. These are the relveant definitions:

Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost.

1. Expulsion from the uterus of an embryo or fetus before viability (20 weeks' gestation [18 weeks after fertilization] or fetal weight less than 500 g). A distinction made between abortion and premature birth is that premature infants are those born after the stage of viability but before 37 weeks' gestation. Abortion may be either spontaneous (occurring from natural causes) or induced (artificially or therapeutically).
2. The arrest of any action or process before its normal completion.

... according to the links. Can we agree on them?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Do you mean that (P) "Premeditated murder of an innocent!" is a good definition of "abortion?"

Now I will expain that (P) is not more than an opinion. I this stage I don't care if abortion is good or bad, just that the definition is bad.

What is murder? Murder is a legal term, right? So wherever we use the legal term murder, we use the legal definit ...[text shortened]... pinion, and you yours. But until then I don't want to state mine.

more arguments over words and definitions, im bored of it. No issues and no fences
facing.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
You start by putting your bible down and try and develop your mind to the point where it can process information in a rational/neutral way and try figure out who the autonomous individual is the clump of cells or the pregnant woman. As I said in an earlier post the more developed the feutus is the more complicated it gets. But personally I would not want to tell any woman that she has to carry a feutus to full term based on my sensitivities/beliefs.

you start by picking up your Bible, opening its pages, reading the words, reflecting
upon those words so that they percolate from the mind to the heart, the seat of
motivation and you are moved to action. We have no issues, to us life is life, it is
sacred and cannot be taken by anyone, you have literally become a murderer, you
are depriving a human being of the prospect of life and to attempt to use terms like
rational and reason to justify your taking of life or the prospect of life is simply to
add insult to injury.

Have you never read the life stories of those who were destined for abortion yet by
some turn of fate were saved from it and are now healthy adults, how will you
pontificate your murderous theories to them and to their satisfaction? Thus you
demonstrate the pure folly of the materialist who can see no further than that which
is material, the worst case of spiritual myopia i think i have seen.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
more arguments over words and definitions, im bored of it. No issues and no fences
facing.

If we don't agree about what words really means, then we have not much to discus, have we?

You are against abortion, you say. So an abortion of a child 5 minutes after the conception is wrong, according to you? It's a sin, comparable to murder, and should be punished with a death sentence? (You've said that, according to your 'definition'.)

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If we don't agree about what words really means, then we have not much to discus, have we?

You are against abortion, you say. So an abortion of a child 5 minutes after the conception is wrong, according to you? It's a sin, comparable to murder, and should be punished with a death sentence? (You've said that, according to your 'definition'.)

life is life Fabian, no one has the right to take it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
life is life Fabian, no one has the right to take it.

A woman having a miscarriage is a murderer then, robbie? It should be investigated, and she has to be brought to justice? The dead human being coming out of her vomb is the evidence?

No, come on. God has killed more born innocent children without being punished...

Originally posted by FabianFnas
A woman having a miscarriage is a murderer then, robbie? It should be investigated, and she has to be brought to justice? The dead human being coming out of her vomb is the evidence?

No, come on. God has killed more born innocent children without being punished...

the women has not deliberately taken the life , it is an unfortunate occurrence of
nature, such a weak example, and no, humans have killed more innocents in
abortion than God has ever killed,

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000

Where abortions occur:
83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries.

© Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

these refer to deliberate and premeditated taking of life and those who perpetrated
these atrocities have innocent blood, the blood of millions of innocent victims on
their hands.

why abortion?

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of
potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all
abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

http://abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

how are you going to justify this Fabian? what wicked reasoning shall you try to
employ to implement your materialistic agenda?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why abortion?

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of
potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all
abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

http://abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

how are you going to justify thi ...[text shortened]... Fabian? what wicked reasoning shall you try to
employ to implement your materialistic agenda?

You see everything in black-and-white, robbie.
Do you really think it is murder of a child if the abortion is caused by rape or incest?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You see everything in black-and-white, robbie.
Do you really think it is murder of a child if the abortion is caused by rape or incest?

yes i do and i make no excuses for it, but its not about me Fabian, so how are you
going to justify taking life because its inconvenient to have a baby??? Its so
thoroughly wicked that it really gets me, there is never a convenient time to have a
baby.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The new life is called a baby at the beginning point of conception according
to Christians. These other names like fetus and embryo seem to be attempts
to dehumanize the baby.

Am I right that the Catholic church, and various other Christian denominations, consider human life to start at conception and that the soul enters the new life at the moment of conception and this is why abortion is immoral?

Then out of interest I'd like to know how people who subscribe to this viewpoint would respond to this:
When presented with with identical twins, where the fetus splits after conception and develops as 2 distinct individuals, which one gets the soul and is the other one just a zombie?

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes i do and i make no excuses for it, but its not about me Fabian, so how are you
going to justify taking life because its inconvenient to have a baby??? Its so
thoroughly wicked that it really gets me, there is never a convenient time to have a
baby.

So the girl being raped by his brother has to go to trial for her abortion and have a death sentence, but her brother goes free? According to your definition?

No, it's not about neither you nor me, but I see you seem to be taking it very personal.