proof that we dont have free will

i saw a documentary the other night that claimed a certain number of scientists had found proof that a person is infact born gay, basically, whatever happens to this person throughout their childhood or throughout their life, they will still be gay... the documentary went one step further in saying they have found common characteristics in dna in alcoholics, rapists, murderers etc, and so implying you are born a rapist, murderer etc... this raises many questions, lets just say for a moment this is true and we are born this way... are we then to blame for our sins..?

Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
i saw a documentary the other night that claimed a certain number of scientists had found proof that a person is infact born gay, basically, whatever happens to this person throughout their childhood or throughout their life, they will still be gay... the documentary went one step further in saying they have found common characteristics in dna in alco ...[text shortened]... t say for a moment this is true and we are born this way... are we then to blame for our sins..?

This is from my way of the master study.

Ben Gay: “Hey, Christian, I’m gay, and science has proved that I was born
like this.”
Christian: “True. I was born with homosexual tendencies.”
Ben Gay: “Huh?”
Christian: “I was also born with a tendency to lie, steal, commit adultery,
and fornicate. It’s called ‘sin’ and it’s in every one of us.”
Ben Gay: “So are you saying that I’m going to hell just because I’m homosexual?”
Christian: “I didn’t even mention hell. Where do you think you will go
when you die?”
Ben Gay: “Heaven.”
Christian: “Why?”
Ben Gay: “Because I’m a good person.”
Christian: “Do you want to do a short test to see if you are?”
Ben Gay: “Okay.”
Christian: “Have you ever told a lie? Stolen? Used God’s name in vain?”
The Bible tells us that the Moral Law was made for homosexuals (see 1 Timothy
1:8–10). If you use the Law when witnessing, you won’t even have to
mention their “sexual preference,” and thus be accused of “hate.” The Law
will show the homosexual that he is damned despite his sexual preference.
When he finds a place of true repentance and faith in Jesus, God will take
away his unclean spirit and give him a new heart with new desires.

Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
i saw a documentary the other night that claimed a certain number of scientists had found proof that a person is infact born gay, basically, whatever happens to this person throughout their childhood or throughout their life, they will still be gay... the documentary went one step further in saying they have found common characteristics in dna in alco ...[text shortened]... t say for a moment this is true and we are born this way... are we then to blame for our sins..?

I think what you have discovered is that man has a sin nature. Does this then preclude the possibility that free will exists? I don't think so. I would agree that we are born with a sin nature, however. I would also agree that some are prone to certain "sins" than others. For example, for some people if they take one drink of alcohol it will cause them to become an alcoholic as where others, like myself, gain little pleasure and/or inticement from alcohol. I would also say the same applies in regard to sexual sins. Having said that, does it then mean that it is OK to give into such intiecements or pleasures simply because we may be prone to them via our sin nature? I would say to the person who has a genetic tendency and/or family history of alcoholism not to take the first drink and make a conscience effort to do so for the rest of their lives. It may diminish the pleasure of such astivities, but then again, it just may save their lives.

if a person is gay, and finds christ and loves christ and follows the teaching of christ throughout his/her life, why do these people remain gay? surely this is proof that being gay is not a sin, after all, if a murderer or rapist finds christ, they will change their ways and step away from their sinful nature, but a gay person remains a gay person

Originally posted by whodey
I think what you have discovered is that man has a sin nature. Does this then preclude the possibility that free will exists? I don't think so. I would agree that we are born with a sin nature, however. I would also agree that some are prone to certain "sins" than others. For example, for some people if they take one drink of alcohol it will cause them t ...[text shortened]... t may diminish the pleasure of such astivities, but then again, it just may save their lives.

Are you attempting to say that a person can choose not to be gay? Ha ha, funny joke.

Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
if a person is gay, and finds christ and loves christ and follows the teaching of christ throughout his/her life, why do these people remain gay? surely this is proof that being gay is not a sin, after all, if a murderer or rapist finds christ, they will change their ways and step away from their sinful nature, but a gay person remains a gay person

I think you are mistaken. Christians struggle with sin despite being a Christian. For example, I know of may Christians who have been alcoholics and then become Christians and then fall back into alcoholism. Mel Gibson comes to mind in that regard. This does not mean that as Christians we are powerless to combat the sin or simply give up and surrender to it. Christ has the power to break the sin in our lives and deliver us from it, therefore, it is up to the Christian to turn to him to do so. Also consider someone who is not gay but is straight. They have an attraction to the opposite sex, no? They will have this for the rest of their lives, no? Does it then mean that they should give into every sexual urge due to their attraction to the opposite sex? I liked what Billy Graham once said. He was once asked how he avoided scandel in his ministry and remained one of the few respected ministries in the world of evangelists. He did not gloat about this accomplishment, rather, in humility he simply said that he made the conscious decision long ago to avoid the temptation to do so. He said he refused to entertain the thought of other women or to be in a room alone with one unless, of caorse, it was his wife. Sometimes we must make the decision about a temptation long before we are presented with that temptation in order to overcome it if we know we might have a weakness for that particular temptation. We do this with absolute humility and the realization that we have a fallen nature and, as a result, give into sin from time to time. This does not mean, however, that with Christ in our lives that the sin should remain. Through Christ we can overcome sin that we have given into that has gained a stronghold in our lives. Albiet, it is better not to give into sin the first time and avoid such problems.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Are you attempting to say that a person can choose not to be gay? Ha ha, funny joke.

Are you attempting to say that heterosexuals who choose to vow a life of celebesy, such as a priest or a nun, are incapable of doing so?

Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
i saw a documentary the other night that claimed a certain number of scientists had found proof that a person is infact born gay, basically, whatever happens to this person throughout their childhood or throughout their life, they will still be gay... the documentary went one step further in saying they have found common characteristics in dna in alco ...[text shortened]... t say for a moment this is true and we are born this way... are we then to blame for our sins..?

we are all capable of murder whether we choose to or not same for a lot of things,in mans law i have to say no,

Originally posted by whodey
Are you attempting to say that heterosexuals who choose to vow a life of celebesy, such as a priest or a nun, are incapable of doing so?

Those are two completely separate arguments, and you know it. For one thing, a homosexual who chooses to be celibate is still a homosexual. Whether one chooses to have sex is an entirely different thing from ones sexual preferences.

Originally posted by RBHILL
This is from my way of the master study.

Ben Gay: “Hey, Christian, I’m gay, and science has proved that I was born
like this.”
Christian: “True. I was born with homosexual tendencies.”
Ben Gay: “Huh?”
Christian: “I was also born with a tendency to lie, steal, commit adultery,
and fornicate. It’s called ‘sin’ and it’s in every one of us.”
Ben Gay: “So ...[text shortened]... aith in Jesus, God will take
away his unclean spirit and give him a new heart with new desires.

An excellent illustration of how some Christians lack the spine to openly say, "homosexuality is wrong", even though they believe it completely.

Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
if a person is gay, and finds christ and loves christ and follows the teaching of christ throughout his/her life, why do these people remain gay? surely this is proof that being gay is not a sin, after all, if a murderer or rapist finds christ, they will change their ways and step away from their sinful nature, but a gay person remains a gay person

what if the person is gay and finds Christ, and tries to make him his gay partner? that would be awkward

Originally posted by RBHILL
This is from my way of the master study.

Ben Gay: “Hey, Christian, I’m gay, and science has proved that I was born
like this.”
Christian: “True. I was born with homosexual tendencies.”
Ben Gay: “Huh?”
Christian: “I was also born with a tendency to lie, steal, commit adultery,
and fornicate. It’s called ‘sin’ and it’s in every one of us.”
Ben Gay: “So ...[text shortened]... aith in Jesus, God will take
away his unclean spirit and give him a new heart with new desires.

Jesus is gay.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
what if the person is gay and finds Christ, and tries to make him his gay partner? that would be akward

Yes, and necrophilia.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Yes, and necrophilia.

not if they were both dead and in heaven, but it would still be awkward.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Those are two completely separate arguments, and you know it. For one thing, a homosexual who chooses to be celibate is still a homosexual. Whether one chooses to have sex is an entirely different thing from ones sexual preferences.

My point in saying this is that morality plays a role in what we choose to do or choose not to do. For example, I may choose to be celibate based on the fact that I feel called to the priesthood and am feeling called to be celibate by God. Another example is if I am in a relationship with someone and I choose to remain faithful to them and not cheat on them because I love them and know that doing so would hurt them. I do these things because I love my God or love my spouse and choose to restrain my feelings of attraction accordingly becasue I perceive it is what pleases them. So if I am attracted to a woman whom I am not married to am I an adulterer even though I may choose not lust after her or pursue a physical relationship with her? Likewise, if I am attracted to someone of the same sex would I be categorized as a homosexual even though I choose not to act on it or lust after them? Also, would you categorize someone a drunk even though they may have been sober for the last 20 years?

Having said all that I am not completly convinced that homosexuality is all hereditary. For example, in ancient Greece many if not most of the male population had homosexual tendencies. This tells me that social norms seems to have played a significant role in such behavoir. I have also heard of people who have chosen to forsake the gay lifestyle, albiet, usually for religious reasons. Some of them even marry a member of the opposite sex and say they have been set free from their former lifestyle and are not longer desiring homosexual interaction. I suppose you would say they are living a lie if you believe their sexual oreintation to be cast in stone. You be the judge.