Question about Hell for Christians

Originally posted by Kunsoo
Sheol is a different concept. According to Jewish tradition it's where all souls go, whether "good" or "bad," to await what comes next. Other than Daniel 12, the meaning and translation of which is a huge debate, there really isn't mention of a final judgment in the Old Testament, at least not in explicit terms as the NT.

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Sheol is a different concept. According to Jewish tradition it's where all souls go, whether "good" or "bad," to await what comes next. Other than Daniel 12, the meaning and translation of which is a huge debate, there really isn't mention of a final judgment in the Old Testament, at least not in explicit terms as the NT.
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There are other portions of the Old Testament besides Daniel, which suggest a final judgment of all people.

For example, Abraham called God "the Judge of all the earth":

" Far be it from You! Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Genesis 18:25)

Details may be lacking. But Abraham knew by that time that the God who was about to judge Sodom and Gomorrah would also judge the whole earth eventually.

Another example is in the oldest book of the Bible Job:

"Oh that my words were now written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book!
That with an iron pen and with lead they were engraved in rock forever!

But I know that My Redeemer lives, And at the last He will stand upon the earth; And after this body of mine is destroyed, Outside my flesh I will look on God, Whom I, even I, will look on for myself." (Job 19:24-27)

Job knows something of God and human life. He knows that there will be some kind of final judication of his case. He regards God as his Redeemer. And he completely expects the unimaginable unfairness of his predicament in this life to be ajudicated by God beyond his death.

The earliest book of the Bible includes this assurance of final judgment by God.

Then we have Solomon's rather pessimistic sermon in Ecclesiastes. Solomon too says that God will bring every act of man into a final judgment:

"The end of the matter, when all has been heard, is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole of man. For God will bring every deed to judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil." (Ecc. 12:13,14)

Solomon closes his book with a warning that there will be a final judgment of every deed, including all secrets of men, good and evil.

Again in the same book, this was one of the first Bible verses that impressed me as a lusty young man in his twenties who was seeking God:

"Rejoice, young man, in your childhood, and let your heart be merry in the days of your youth; and walk in the ways of your heart and in the light of your eyes. But know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment." (Ecc. 11:9)

I really liked the first part of this verse as a young man. It seems God has already approved what I do. "Hey, that's cool!" But then there was that second part which caused me some pause:

"But know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment."

There will be a final accounting, a last judgment for all my deeds before God, says the wisest man.

A final judgment of all mankind is also implied in such passages as:

Psalm 58:10,11 - "The righteous man will rejoice when he sees vengence; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

And men will say, Indeed there is fruit for the righteous man; Indeed there is a God who judges on earth."

Psalm 94:2 - "Lift Your self up, O Judge of the earth; Render the reward upon the proud. How long, O Jehovah, will the wicked, How long will the wicked exult?"

Psalm 98:9 - "Let the rivers clap their hands; Let the mountains sing for joy together before Jehovah, for He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness and the peoples with equity."

Outside of Daniel we can see indications of a last judgment of the world by God. And the example of Noah's flood in Genesis can be counted as a proto example of universal judgment and salvation for future generations to contemplate.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 appears to contradict your opinion. Could it be that Christ knows a bit more than you or the JWs on this issue ?

So what is your point?

Originally posted by galveston75
So what is your point?

I thought it was clear.

You said ".. In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment."

Then I said .. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 appears to contradict your opinion.

That means that in that story Christ is depicting events which took place in Hades/Sheol where activity and torment were present.

If you were right and there were no activity or torment, then Christ would not have used such a description.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
As I recall, our stances differed on the question of whether hell is eternal suffering or not. I argued that it is eternal suffering and you argued that it is merely the end of consciousness forever, i.e., death. I don't think there's anything in my post to indicate my position has changed.

i think there is, for example, you state, 'It is eternal separation from God, both spiritually and bodily', now you can construe that this is in some way suffering, but its a long way from the idea that God consciously causes pain for some perceived misdemeanour as a measure of retribution.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I thought it was clear.

You said ".. In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment."

Then I said .. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 appears to contradict your opinion.

That means that in that story Christ is depicting events which took place in Hades/Sheol where a ...[text shortened]... ght and there were no activity or torment, then Christ would not have used such a description.

It's just a parable and no indication at all anywhere in the Bible otherwise.

Originally posted by galveston75
It's just a parable and no indication at all anywhere in the Bible otherwise.

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It's just a parable and no indication at all anywhere in the Bible otherwise.
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The account mentions a specific name Lazarus.
In what other parable told by Christ was a person's name mentioned ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
It's just a parable and no indication at all anywhere in the Bible otherwise.
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The account mentions a specific name Lazarus.
In what other parable told by Christ was a person's name mentioned ?[/b]

the account also states, 'dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I
am in anguish in this blazing fire', sooo a drip of water on the tongue is going to quench
you when you are being burned alive, how?

man you people need your bums felt to bring you back to reality.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
It's just a parable and no indication at all anywhere in the Bible otherwise.
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The account mentions a specific name Lazarus.
In what other parable told by Christ was a person's name mentioned ?[/b]

Plus Christ made very specific statements about the nature of 'Hell' and of 'Abraham's Bosom', and this is not a characteristic of a parable.

Some say that Christ did that becuase that was the prevailing belief at the time so that the listeners would have readily identified with the story.

If the belief that 'good' souls going to separate places from bad souls, were a false doctrine to be rejected then Christ would certainly straightened that matter out. Instead he used the nature of death, and souls to make an important point.

The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that

1. those enjoying divine favour could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham
2. that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades
3. that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
Sheol is a different concept. According to Jewish tradition it's where all souls go, whether "good" or "bad," to await what comes next. Other than Daniel 12, the meaning and translation of which is a huge debate, there really isn't mention of a final judgment in the Old Testament, at least not in explicit terms as the ...[text shortened]... ersal judgment and salvation for future generations to contemplate.

A serious question: Why would an omniscient god judge the world since it already knows at the beginning of time what is the result of all of mankind's endeavors, If it has to wait till judgement day, that implies it doesn't know the outcome of what happens to humans.

If this god knows what happens to every one of us now and in the future, it has already rendered a judgement.

Predestinarian view part 1:

The view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that God’s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection. Examples such as the case of Isaac’s twin sons, Esau and Jacob, are presented as evidence of God’s foreordaining creatures before their birth (Ro 9:10-13); and texts such as Ephesians 1:4, 5 are cited as evidence that God foreknew and foreordained the future of all his creatures even before the start of creation.
To be correct, this view would, of course, have to harmonize with all the factors previously mentioned, including the Scriptural presentation of God’s qualities, standards, and purposes, as well as his righteous ways in dealing with his creatures. (Re 15:3, 4) We may properly consider, then, the implications of such a predestinarian view.
This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.
If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.

Part 2:

The argument that God’s not foreknowing all future events and circumstances in full detail would evidence imperfection on his part is, in reality, an arbitrary view of perfection. Perfection, correctly defined, does not demand such an absolute, all-embracing extension, inasmuch as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. Ultimately, God’s own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect.—De 32:4; 2Sa 22:31; Isa 46:10.
To illustrate this, God’s almightiness is undeniably perfect and is infinite in capacity. (1Ch 29:11, 12; Job 36:22; 37:23) Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence in any or in all cases. Clearly he has not done so; if he had, not merely certain ancient cities and some nations would have been destroyed, but the earth and all in it would have been obliterated long ago by God’s executions of judgment, accompanied by mighty expressions of disapproval and wrath, as at the Flood and on other occasions. (Ge 6:5-8; 19:23-25, 29; compare Ex 9:13-16; Jer 30:23, 24.) God’s exercise of his might is therefore not simply an unleashing of limitless power but is constantly governed by his purpose and, where merited, tempered by his mercy.—Ne 9:31; Ps 78:38, 39; Jer 30:11; La 3:22; Eze 20:17.
Similarly, if, in certain respects, God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him, then assuredly no human or angel can rightly say: “What are you doing?” (Job 9:12; Isa 45:9; Da 4:35) It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for “with God all things are possible.” (Mt 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for “everything that he delighted to do he has done.”—Ps 115:3.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the account also states, 'dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I
am in anguish in this blazing fire', sooo a drip of water on the tongue is going to quench
you when you are being burned alive, how?

man you people need your bums felt to bring you back to reality.

I think the idea that Jesus was attempting to get across to his listeners
is that those that have a wondeful life while on earth and fail to help the
needy will be tormented in the afterlife in a mental way like the rich man
who did not care about the poor man and would not help him. While the
poor man, instead of stealing from the rich man, begged for just a few
crumbs and did not receive them while alive on earth; but in the life
to come he will have plenty because he remained good. Hell seems to
be a place in the parable, but who really knows. It is at minimum a state
of mind, however.

Originally posted by galveston75
I didn't say I agree with their belief. We know where the term Hades came from:

Greek, Etruscan, and Roman Hells
The ancient Greeks believed in the survival of a soul (psykhe, the word they also used for the butterfly). They called Hades the realm of the dead and believed it was ruled over by a god of the same name. In ...[text shortened]... opied from Greek mythology. Prayers and offerings for the dead were practiced by the Etruscans.

Hades came from the Greek. Yet it was used as a term for Sheol or hell or whatever idea your trying to assign to it. My point was a word can be borrowed from one language and used to mean a word in another language. This does not mean that a word or idea is pagan. Kurios is a perfect example. A Greek word. This just proves you spout only what JW publications allow you to.


Manny

Originally posted by sonhouse
A serious question: Why would an omniscient god judge the world since it already knows at the beginning of time what is the result of all of mankind's endeavors, If it has to wait till judgement day, that implies it doesn't know the outcome of what happens to humans.

If this god knows what happens to every one of us now and in the future, it has already rendered a judgement.

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A serious question: Why would an omniscient god judge the world since it already knows at the beginning of time what is the result of all of mankind's endeavors, If it has to wait till judgement day, that implies it doesn't know the outcome of what happens to humans.

If this god knows what happens to every one of us now and in the future, it has already rendered a judgement.
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When I was a fresh new Christian I began to meet with a godly congregation. Being a typical young man out of the 60s generation, I cared very much about wanting to have a mate, a partner in marriage. It appeared to me that if I was now going to be a follower of Jesus Christ, I could not expect to live the loose and licentious life that I previously lived as an unbeliever.

So I began to seek out a proper marriage partner for myself. But I had a particular attitude which was like this - "Nobody, but nobody, but nobody no way and no how, was going to arrange a wife for me!" This was my business and everybody was to stay out of any kind of match making.

(You know, in congregations of believers there is often an eagerness to match make with certain kinds of enthusiastic people). This I greatly feared and resented.

Anyway, I made extra precautions that whoever I chose would be MY CHOICE. To make the story short, I did go through a kind of shopping list until someone decided that they were willing to spend their life with me. She was and still is a wonderful woman. And she was not at all the type that was eager to marry. She did not want to be married because of her home life experience with an disfunctional family with an alchoholic father.

Well, we got married. And have been happily so for over 30 years.

The strangest thing happened though. About a year or two after we were married she told me that God had spoken to her the moment I first walked into the meeting hall ' "That is the man that you are going to marry."

She kept this a secret. After we were married for over a year, she confessed that she had had that kind of clear speaking from the Holy Spirit.

To my personal sensation, I had absolute freedom of choice. NO ONE interfered with my choice. I saw deligently to that. What people suggested I sometimes did the opposite to. But according to my wife's testimony, God seemed to know all along who I was going to choose.

To me this is a paradox. I don't know if God arranged for me to marry her or whether God just KNEW in advance who I would choose. Philosophically I cannot tell you if this was free will or predestination. Maybe we can argue that forever. I am not that smart. Smarter people than me have debated that for CENTRIES.

But to my sense I had perfect freedom of choice.

Concerning the choice to believe into Christ or not ? I am pretty sure that no one reading this Forum feels forced, coerced, driven against his will to make a decision one way or another.

Do you HAVE to assail the Gospel of Jesus today ? I doubt it. Like the flipping of a binary switch you could just, (even for experimentation's sake) decide to open up more and have a good talk to God about your belief or unbelief.

So all I can leave you with is what D.L. Moody the evangelist once said. On the outside of the door of the kingdom of God it reads "Whosoever will". Once you step in the door and turn around to look, on the other side it reads "Chosen before the foundation of the world".

Its a paradox that I cannot sufficiently solve for you. Maybe someone else can. But I doubt it.