Question about Hell for Christians

Originally posted by menace71
Hades came from the Greek. Yet it was used as a term for Sheol or hell or whatever idea your trying to assign to it. My point was a word can be borrowed from one language and used to mean a word in another language. This does not mean that a word or idea is pagan. Kurios is a perfect example. A Greek word. This just proves you spout only what JW publications allow you to.


Manny

Whatever Manny.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the account also states, 'dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I
am in anguish in this blazing fire', sooo a drip of water on the tongue is going to quench
you when you are being burned alive, how?

man you people need your bums felt to bring you back to reality.

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the account also states, 'dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I
am in anguish in this blazing fire', sooo a drip of water on the tongue is going to quench
you when you are being burned alive, how?

man you people need your bums felt to bring you back to reality.
=======================================

You did not answer my question. I will take that as an indication that you cannot think of a "parable" where Jesus specifically mentioned a person's name.

That fact makes the discreption of the teaching as a fictional parable suspect. The mention of the name "Lazarus" argues that this event was a history that Christ somehow knew about.

My opinion has sometimes been that it was something that perhaps happened recently to Christ's earthly ministry. Maybe it happened even on a previous day. And the reason for that opinion is that the rich man seems to have perished because of neglect to the prophets and not to the Gospel of Jesus specifically, Christ being at that time like one of the prophets.

I could be completely wrong. But anyway, the mentioning of a man's name, Lazarus, leads me to believe that this was not a fictional account.

Now, as to the scientifics of the torment part of hell ? I do not know. But one thing is clear. The situation of the perishing rich man is communicated universally as bad, unpleasant, and to be avoided at all costs. That is the impact of the teaching.

When Jesus said that people will be salted by fire (Mark 9:49), it could mean that God has a way to preserve the condemned under this kind of judgment.

"The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." ( 2 Peter 2:9)

God Almighty knows how to keep the deceased rich man under punishment. That is all I need to know to heed the teaching.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
the account also states, 'dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I
am in anguish in this blazing fire', sooo a drip of water on the tongue is going to quench
you when you are being burned alive, how?

man you people need your bums felt to bring you back to reality.
============== ...[text shortened]... deceased rich man under punishment. That is all I need to know to heed the teaching.

It always amazes me as to the onion levels of religious writing. Starting with nothing but plagiarized stories from religions thousands of years older, like the creation myth which appeared on ancient Egyptian cartouche drawings I saw with my own eyes, exactly as laid out in Genisis, 7 day creation story.

Clearly man made mythology but when adopted by Judaism became written in stone to be taken literally so creationists are completely deluded by all this, then the bible gets re-written and re-interpreted and re-re-interpreted
for thousands of years so each sub cult of the Christian religion can make its own meaning out of all these fairy tales.

So 2 billion people read the bible and come to 2 billion conclusions. Amazing when you think about it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
It always amazes me as to the onion levels of religious writing. Starting with nothing but plagiarized stories from religions thousands of years older, like the creation myth which appeared on ancient Egyptian cartouche drawings I saw with my own eyes, exactly as laid out in Genisis, 7 day creation story.

Clearly man made mythology but when adopted by Ju ...[text shortened]... illion people read the bible and come to 2 billion conclusions. Amazing when you think about it.

=============================
It always amazes me as to the onion levels of religious writing. Starting with nothing but plagiarized stories from religions thousands of years older, like the creation myth which appeared on ancient Egyptian cartouche drawings I saw with my own eyes, exactly as laid out in Genisis, 7 day creation story.
================================

You saw Egyptian cartouches which depicted something similar to what Genesis says ? The question you should ask is WHO is copying WHO?

The account going into Genesis was likely a oral tradition that was passed down from the earliest generations of mankind. Perhaps, Adam related what he knew to his family and that was passed on down to many relatives and cultures. The account could have spread around the globe and received some embellishments to account for local priorities.

So just because you saw Egyptian writings reminicient of the Genesis account is no proof that the Hebrews copied the Egyptians. Before the mentioning of the very first Hebrew, Abraham, the account could have flourished in that ancient world with some local modifications.

================================
Clearly man made mythology but when adopted by Judaism became written in
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You don't know that. World history may have been circulating. And though embellishments were indeed added, the truest account could be that in the Bible as God's revelation.

The collective memory of early civilizations could have had thier own versions of the commonly known world history. You assume the Jews copied the Egyptians. That, for you, provides a rational to not take seriously the Bible as God's revelation to the world.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
It always amazes me as to the onion levels of religious writing. Starting with nothing but plagiarized stories from religions thousands of years older, like the creation myth which appeared on ancient Egyptian cartouche drawings I saw with my own eyes, exactly as laid out in Genisis, 7 day creation story.
=========== ...[text shortened]... or you, provides a rational to not take seriously the Bible as God's revelation to the world.

And you forget there are thousands of creation myths, your biblical version being just one. So you line up all ten thousand of them or whatever the number is, side by side and then just pontificate upon the single one you feel is the true story.

Sounds logical to me.....

Originally posted by Kunsoo
Where is Hell? I mean physically?

I always assumed that the belief was that you die and basically your soul is taken out of the physical universe altogether, kind of like what science fiction would consider another dimension. But I've been reading some Christian stuff that suggests that it's physically underground - in the core of the Earth. One website ed.

Do you have a belief about the location of Hell? Is Heaven then literally in the sky?

If'n ya dig a deep hole, Hell is twix Chiner and you.

Good God people, the OP was a simple question, and then it brought out a debate about Hell.
Hell is bad, hence the name HELL.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 appears to contradict your opinion. Could it be that Christ knows a bit more than you or the JWs on this issue ?

I don't know about the JW's. I'm speaking to Jewish tradition. Luke is not part of Jewish tradition.

Originally posted by josephw
Curiosity stems from not knowing.

Heaven and hell are both outside of the physical senses. Where is that? How should I know? I've never been there. I'm not curious about it to the degree that would motivate me to debate about it.

Jesus ascended into the sky and then disappeared. He is now in the place the Bible calls heaven. Heaven is God's home so to ...[text shortened]... er have the power nor the intellect to comprehend such a thing. We simply believe it's true.

Yeah, well, what you're saying confirms that among the aspects of organized religion is the propensity to kill the natural inquisitiveness of the human mind. And that's not a good thing.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
Sheol is a different concept. According to Jewish tradition it's where all souls go, whether "good" or "bad," to await what comes next. Other than Daniel 12, the meaning and translation of which is a huge debate, there really isn't mention of a final judgment in the Old Testament, at least not in explicit terms as the ...[text shortened]... ersal judgment and salvation for future generations to contemplate.

Good points. At least some of those quotes point to a final judgment, or at least imply it. Although it's not quite explicit in the sense of the Gospels. The Ecclesiastes quote seems pretty close however.

Originally posted by jaywill
=====================================
the account also states, 'dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I
am in anguish in this blazing fire', sooo a drip of water on the tongue is going to quench
you when you are being burned alive, how?

man you people need your bums felt to bring you back to reality.
============== deceased rich man under punishment. That is all I need to know to heed the teaching.

Lazarus was a common Jewish name, its irrelevant that Christ mentions it and typically tenuous for nominal Christians to try to wring some significance from it. There i have answered your question, i have even given a reference from a footnote in the Jerusalem Bible stating that its considered a parable, yet strangely you seem unable to answer any of these other points. Thats fine, it is what I have come to expect.

Originally posted by sonhouse
And you forget there are thousands of creation myths, your biblical version being just one. So you line up all ten thousand of them or whatever the number is, side by side and then just pontificate upon the single one you feel is the true story.

Sounds logical to me.....

===================================
And you forget there are thousands of creation myths, your biblical version being just one. So you line up all ten thousand of them or whatever the number is, side by side and then just pontificate upon the single one you feel is the true story.

Sounds logical to me.....
==========================================

The fact remains that there is no book on the face of the earth like the Bible.

I know there are tons of traditions from various cultures. Some are very different and they cannot all be right.

But the 66 books of the Bible comprise an all-incompasing record of God's dealing with His creation and man from the beginning to eternity future. There is a unity and fullness of content which is not found in any other book or library, including the Quran, including the comparitively ancient sanskrit texts of India with its thousands of deities.

Face it, skeptic, the Holy Bible is one of a kind. You want to spend the rest of your life convencing yourself that its not unique, that your wasted time.

Let's test it out. Name me another writing which in as many human words as are found between, ie., Genesis chapter 1 and 11 you find explanations for this many crucial issues of existence:

1.) The origin of the world
2.) The origin of light
3.) The origin of life
4.) The origin of the 7 day week cycle
5.) The origin of the design of man
6.) The purpose for man's creation
7.) The details of man's first diet of food
8.) The origin of marriage
9.) The details of the first human family
10.) The origin of wrong doing and evil behavior in man
11.) The record of the first worship
12.) The record of the first murder
13.) The record of the first city
14.) The record of first polygamous marriage
15.) The origin of agriculture
16.) The origin of metals industry
15.) The origin of musical performance
18.) The origin of calling on the name of God
19.) The first covenant between God and man
20.) The first record of a divine judgment on the world
21.) The first record of a divine salvation to the righteous
22.) The origin of different human languages
23.) The record of the early spread of man over the globe

24.) I forgot the origin of human dying.
25.) I also forgot the origin of wandering and nomadic culture.
26.) I also forgot the origin of meat eating among humans.
27.) I also include the origin of government.
28.) I also include a record of the first anarchical society.
29.) I also should include a record of the beginning of time and space.

I do not expect you to come up with portions of this or that from many different mythologies. I expect you to produce ONE writing which takes as many words as is found between Genesis 1 and Genesis 11, to explain this many important pieces of knowledge to the world.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
And you forget there are thousands of creation myths, your biblical version being just one. So you line up all ten thousand of them or whatever the number is, side by side and then just pontificate upon the single one you feel is the true story.

Sounds logical to me.....
==================================== n Genesis 1 and Genesis 11, to explain this many important pieces of knowledge to the world.

I can start out with the Quran. Then The Upanishads come to mind. You have such a provincial outlook. Like the bible is the only text ever written. Like I said, religious books are like onions, you find layer after layer, written over thousands of years but at the core, nothing.

It does not require a god to come up with pithy sayings about how to conduct your life, just human creativity and intelligence. No god needed to get those words down.
You must think human beings are so stupid they could not have done much in the past. All those pyramids, did they come from aliens who came down to Earth with nothing better to do than to be used to make them? No, humans did it all. Same with your precious book.

Read this if you dare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text

I imagine your response to be something like 'I don't need to even look at those books, I have all I need in the bible'.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I can start out with the Quran. Then The Upanishads come to mind. You have such a provincial outlook. Like the bible is the only text ever written. Like I said, religious books are like onions, you find layer after layer, written over thousands of years but at the core, nothing.

It does not require a god to come up with pithy sayings about how to conduc ...[text shortened]... be something like 'I don't need to even look at those books, I have all I need in the bible'.

To charge me that I have an attitude that "Like the bible is the only text ever written." is not at all a reflection of my request. On the contrary, my request precludes and acknolwedges that OTHER TEXTS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN. The point is that the Bible is in a class of its own.

My reply to you will be of course an honest reply. I have not read personally every single religious or mythological tradition. My library does not consists of thousands of books of translations around the world.

I have read some things pertaining to the origins of mankind. I have not read all and I do not expect that you have read all of them either.

First, the Quran is pretty much disqualified. Why? Because the Quran constantly makes references to the Bible. The flavor of the Quran to me, as much as I have read it is like this:

"Well, you heard about what the Bible said. Now since I was privy to the conversations and events I will now fill in some details that were left out."

The Quran of Islam takes a position of modifying much info given in the Bible in order to propogate some ideas important to the establishment of a new faith. I call this the "fly on the wall" concept. The writer of the Quran puts himself forth as having "been there also" and now intends to fill in the missing pieces, which are of course important to Moslem theology. They want an Arabic version of a divine Law Giver. They wanted an Arabic version of Moses the God sent law giver and an Arabic version of Jesus Christ. Only this Arabic Savior is the last prophet and not God incarnate or the Son of God.

I have to dismiss the Quran as a competitor in the same class as Genesis or the whole Bible. Some similarities do exist though.

I will comment on the Upanishads latter.
But here's the comment of one expert in Indian Sacred Text:

Professor M. Montiero-Williams, former Boden professor of Sanskrit, spent 42 years studying Eastern books and said in comparing them with the Bible:

"Pile them, if you will, on the left side of your study table; but place your own Holy Bible on the right side - all by itself, all alone - and with a wide gap between them. For,...there is a gulf between it and the so-called sacred books of the East which severs the one from the other utterly, hopelessly, and forever...a veritable gulf which cannot be bridged over by any science of religious thought."

Quoted from "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

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I can start out with the Quran. Then The Upanishads come to mind. You have such a provincial outlook. Like the bible is the only text ever written. Like I said, religious books are like onions, you find layer after layer, written over thousands of years but at the core, nothing.

It does not require a god to come up with pithy sayings about how to conduct your life, just human creativity and intelligence. No god needed to get those words down.
You must think human beings are so stupid they could not have done much in the past. All those pyramids, did they come from aliens who came down to Earth with nothing better to do than to be used to make them? No, humans did it all. Same with your precious book.
====================================

I don't know what you're talking about here with this comment on the pyramids.
I don't think humans are stupid. And humans that could live to 900 years old certainly must not have been uninformed about many things.

The pyramids, as far as I know, had much to do with the very rich monarch's preoccupation with the thorny problem of DEATH. Rather than disprove the Bible, it could be argued that the encredible perplexity of early man with the problem of DYING and turning back to dust occupied a few who could afford it to employ thousands of laborers to whip the tragic problem.

This might suggest the entrance of human death into the world so utterly confounded everything mankind intuitively knew should be, in a way that drove some, who were powerful and could afford it, to obsession.

============================
Read this if you dare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text

I imagine your response to be something like 'I don't need to even look at those books, I have all I need in the bible'.
===================================

Sure, I'll take a look. Should I be scared ??

I'll spend some time reading that and swap you one:

http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/myredeemer/Evidencep3.html

Originally posted by jaywill
To charge me that I have an attitude that [b]"Like the bible is the only text ever written." is not at all a reflection of my request. On the contrary, my request precludes and acknolwedges that OTHER TEXTS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN. The point is that the Bible is in a class of its own.

My reply to you will be of course an honest reply. I have not read p ...[text shortened]... swap you one:

http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/myredeemer/Evidencep3.html[/b]

Ok, I read that and here is the conclusion:


The Conclusion is Obvious

The above does not prove the Bible is the Word of GOD, but to me it proves that it is unique ("different from all others; having no like or equal"😉.

A professor remarked to me:

"If you are an intelligent person, you will read the one book that has drawn more attention than any other, if you are searching for the truth."

NOTE: The Bible is the first religious book to be taken into outer space (it was on microfilm). It is the first book read describing the source of the earth (astronauts read Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning GOD..."😉. Just think, Voltaire said it would be extinct by 1850.

It is also one of the (if not the) most expensive books. Gutenberg's Latin Vulgate Bible sells for over $100,000. The Russians sold the Codex Sinaiticus (an early copy of the Bible) to England for $510,000.

And finally, the longest telegram in the world was the Revised Version New Testament sent from New York to Chicago.


The above does not prove it to be the word of god. Right there in the text.

You give men a thousand years to pontificate and they will for sure pontificate.

I never disputed the actual verbiage of the bible. My point is men like to write and it doesn't take a supernatural source of inspiration to do it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Ok, I read that and here is the conclusion:


The Conclusion is Obvious

The above does not prove the Bible is the Word of GOD, but to me it proves that it is unique ("different from all others; having no like or equal"😉.

A professor remarked to me:

"If you are an intelligent person, you will read the one book that has drawn more attention than a is men like to write and it doesn't take a supernatural source of inspiration to do it.

======================================
The above does not prove the Bible is the Word of GOD, but to me it proves that it is unique ("different from all others; having no like or equal".
=====================================

I don't think McDowell set out to PROVE the Bible as the Word of God.

McDowell's book is not called "Proof, That Demands Acknowledgment" but "EVIDENCE That Demands a Verdic".

Supporting evidence to the Bible being the Word of God is presented.
He just asks the reader to pass verdic whether we are on the right track to believe that it is a book from God to man.

===================================
A professor remarked to me:

"If you are an intelligent person, you will read the one book that has drawn more attention than any other, if you are searching for the truth."

NOTE: The Bible is the first religious book to be taken into outer space (it was on microfilm). It is the first book read describing the source of the earth (astronauts read Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning GOD...". Just think, Voltaire said it would be extinct by 1850.

It is also one of the (if not the) most expensive books. Gutenberg's Latin Vulgate Bible sells for over $100,000. The Russians sold the Codex Sinaiticus (an early copy of the Bible) to England for $510,000.

And finally, the longest telegram in the world was the Revised Version New Testament sent from New York to Chicago.


The above does not prove it to be the word of god. Right there in the text.
============================================

Some of this are trivialities but interesting. I mean taking the Bible into outer space.

Again, McDowell rightely named his book "Evidence that Demands a Verdic".
I would not recommend it to anyone as proof of divine inspiration of the Bible with some kind of mathematical certainty.

Isn't it enough to suppose that one is probably on the right or wrong track ?

You really didn't present what I asked for. Now I am going to take time to find out how many words there are from Genesis 1 through 11 and compare that with the opening words of the Upanishad and see if your comparison is valid.

It will take me some time to find and read an English translation of the equivalent number of words in the Upanishad. But I think the economical usage of human words to reveal so many vital questions of world and human life, is a unique property of Genesis.

I know nowhere else such a concise yet flowing and seamless history of the world is presented. I don't think you can even find another creation story which depicts a creating God wholly OUTSIDE of the creation.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" has to mean that this Creating God is Himself transcendant to space and time.

I don't believe you can quote me a creation tradition which reveals such a transcendent Creator. Possibly you might have a parellel in the Quran. But as I said, the Quran is an attempt to REFER to the Bible with modifications in order to propogate some inserted adjustments.

I would be interested for you to quote me a section or two from your collected creation myths which show such a God as TRANSCENDENT and OUTSIDE of the universe and space / time calling into being the world.

In the coming weeks I will read 11 Genesis size portion of words in the Upanishad. I will compare its opening several thousand words to those of the Holy Bible.


I'll be looking for something LIKE this info disclosed in Genesis 1 - 11 in your Upanishad:

=======================================
1.) The origin of the world
2.) The origin of light
3.) The origin of life
4.) The origin of the 7 day week cycle
5.) The origin of the design of man
6.) The purpose for man's creation
7.) The details of man's first diet of food
8.) The origin of marriage
9.) The details of the first human family
10.) The origin of wrong doing and evil behavior in man
11.) The record of the first worship
12.) The record of the first murder
13.) The record of the first city
14.) The record of first polygamous marriage
15.) The origin of agriculture
16.) The origin of metals industry
15.) The origin of musical performance
18.) The origin of calling on the name of God
19.) The first covenant between God and man
20.) The first record of a divine judgment on the world
21.) The first record of a divine salvation to the righteous
22.) The origin of different human languages
23.) The record of the early spread of man over the globe

24.) I forgot the origin of human dying.
25.) I also forgot the origin of wandering and nomadic culture.
26.) I also forgot the origin of meat eating among humans.
27.) I also include the origin of government.
28.) I also include a record of the first anarchical society.
29.) I also should include a record of the beginning of time and space.

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