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Originally posted by jaywillI think you have a definite point there, religion has served to preserve some civilizations, all we have to do is look at Judaism to see it certainly kept a uniform society going for thousands of years and sometimes monks preserved books that would have been lost in the dark ages after Rome fell and I certainly don't think it would be instant utopia if religions went away but I suspect what I really want is a superior human like I mentioned in my wishful thinking list. More advanced than humans and having an innate sense of morality not derived from religious principles.
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A real God would need no such person, no person to come down to earth and 'die for our sins' and so forth, that is just another story cleverly designed to sway the unsuspecting.
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I don't know if I should trust your skeptical attitude on this.
Peter wrote: "F h it is doubtful there is an equal.
So I just as soon listen to what He has to say.
My point is you cannot trust the morality of a 'god' or God who allows so many diabolically opposed religions where killing in the name of some god or God is condoned or even commanded and where women are excluded from the first class citizen status of the supposed religious men who started it all. It smells suspiciously like ALL religions are just man made devices to control populations and to keep women in their place, that is, subject to the whims of men. That is the bottom line of what is happening all around the world and throughout the history of modern religions. Show me a modern religion that has women as total equals to men. Modern religions are seemingly saying if you possess a vagina you are automatically second class citizens only good for producing progeny, heirs for the males who control woman's destiny and very lives. It is not something I would not think a real god would ever allow. If a real god were to come down to earth, having not been here before, say it was just traveling around from universe to universe, and popped into our space, it would go 'what kind of BS is this?' You all think you worship a god and you treat women like this? And kill other people of other religions because they are not YOUR religion? I even see Sunni's killing Shia, and they are both MUSLIM for god's sake. It's clear you people have been freewheeling for way too long with nobody to set the real rules on how to treat other people. From now on, this is how it's going to be.......
Originally posted by sonhouseI don't believe that Jesus Christ is a religion. I believe that Jesus is a living Person.
I think you have a definite point there, religion has served to preserve some civilizations, all we have to do is look at Judaism to see it certainly kept a uniform society going for thousands of years and sometimes monks preserved books that would have been lost in the dark ages after Rome fell and I certainly don't think it would be instant utopia if reli ...[text shortened]... anced than humans and having an innate sense of morality not derived from religious principles.
The tension between reigion and Jesus is very apparent in the New Testament. I do sometimes get religious. But when my relationship with Christ is most normal it is not a religion at all. It is a spontaneous life of joy and the sheer enjoyment of the Person of the living God.
Originally posted by jaywillYou may think of Jesus Christ as a living person but it still satisfies anybodies criteria for a religion.
I don't believe that Jesus Christ is a religion. I believe that Jesus is a [b]living Person.
The tension between reigion and Jesus is very apparent in the New Testament. I do sometimes get religious. But when my relationship with Christ is most normal it is not a religion at all. It is a spontaneous life of joy and the sheer enjoyment of the Person of the living God.[/b]
Originally posted by sonhouseWell, just as long as you realize that if there is a God that is not the God of religion that is the God of reality.
You may think of Jesus Christ as a living person but it still satisfies anybodies criteria for a religion.
For instance gravity is a law that works everywhere. It is not just a law that works in the physics laboratory.
If there is God that God is the truth God not the religion God. That is the way I see it.
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Originally posted by sonhouseI know that Jesus is a living Person.
You may think of Jesus Christ as a living person but it still satisfies anybodies criteria for a religion.
Or let me say it this way - I am more show that Jesus is a living Person than I am that I am who I am.
I have had deep deep nightmares in which I could not even be sure of who I was. Yet the name of Jesus caused peace to flood into my heart in the midst of those nightmares.
At such times I was hardly aware of whether I was dreaming or awake. I couldn't even be sure what my name was. But I knew to utter the name of Jesus and I would be saved.
Deep deep down in the human spirit the most solid and sure reality is that Jesus is Lord.
I knew a man who was in a car accident and in a comma for a number of days. When he awoke he was sure that Jesus was His Savior.
The old hymn writer wrote "Somewhere in the shadows, you'll find Jesus."
It is true. It is so very true.
Originally posted by jaywillWell as far as I am concerned, all that is coming from within your own mind but if it helps you to live then you need the support however you get it.
I know that Jesus is a living Person.
Or let me say it this way - I am more show that Jesus is a living Person than I am that I am who I am.
I have had deep deep nightmares in which I could not even be sure of who I was. Yet the name of Jesus caused peace to flood into my heart in the midst of those nightmares.
At such times I was hardly aware of ...[text shortened]... te [b]"Somewhere in the shadows, you'll find Jesus."
It is true. It is so very true.[/b]
I am content as it is not to have to have such an alter ego in my own brain.
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Originally posted by sonhouseIf you can figure out which part of my mind caused the ark of Noah to rest on dry land the day that Jesus rose from the dead, I would like to know.
Well as far as I am concerned, all that is coming from within your own mind but if it helps you to live then you need the support however you get it.
I am content as it is not to have to have such an alter ego in my own brain.
The coincidence is too uncanny. Especially so since Peter said that the ark was a type of salvation in Christ.
I would like to also know which part of my mind caused such a Person as Jesus to be born in Bethlehem according to the ancient prophecy of Micah.
Originally posted by jaywillYou should read a book called "Jesus Lived in India"
If you can figure out which part of my mind caused the ark of Noah to rest on dry land the day that Jesus rose from the dead, I would like to know.
The coincidence is too uncanny. Especially so since Peter said that the ark was a type of salvation in Christ.
I would like to also know which part of my mind caused such a Person as Jesus to be born in Bethlehem according to the ancient prophecy of Micah.
The main theme is Jesus did not die on the cross (even in the bible after he was cut down from the cross he was covered in healing herbs like Aloe not embalming fluids) and recovered enough to make a quick appearance after which he though it best not to be put in the hands of the Romans again (They didn't really even want to crucify Jesus) and thought it best to split the scene and there are records of someone starting monastaries and churches along the silk route right at the time of Christ, so he was a good candidate for that, and thirdly, there is a tomb in Kashmir with moon shaped arcs cut into the feet of the one inside, named Aziz which was one of the names ascribed to Christ. Archeologists have been trying to get access to that crypt for over 50 years but the fighting in the area makes it extremely dangerous for westerners to be in the area at all.
That version of Christ sounds by far the most logical path the the real Christ probably took. I don't think he died on the cross, I particularly don't think he 'ascended' into heaven. Recovering well enough to make a quick appearance and then a quick run up the silk route sounds very logical to me. Of course that goes against the fundamental core of Christian dogma so I doubt if any unbiased eyes would ever even consider such a thing. Besides, it shouldn't even be called Christianity in the first place, what we know as Christianity was invented by Paul not Christ, he knew in order for there to be a viable religion in Rome you better have miracles and zip zip there were miracles.
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Originally posted by sonhouse=====================================
You should read a book called "Jesus Lived in India"
The main theme is Jesus did not die on the cross (even in the bible after he was cut down from the cross he was covered in healing herbs like Aloe not embalming fluids) and recovered enough to make a quick appearance after which he though it best not to be put in the hands of the Romans again (They didn' o be a viable religion in Rome you better have miracles and zip zip there were miracles.
You should read a book called "Jesus Lived in India"
The main theme is Jesus did not die on the cross (even in the bible after he was cut down from the cross he was covered in healing herbs like Aloe not embalming fluids) and recovered enough to make a quick appearance after which he though it best not to be put in the hands of the Romans again
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Books like this come out in regular cycles and are often popular. In the 70s when I turned to Jesus Christ The Passover Plot was putting forth the idea that Jesus did not die on the cross but "swooned" in an unconscous state so that they thought he had resurrected.
Then there was a book called The Mistakes of Jesus trying to discredit various passages in the Gospels.
Then there are the regular cycles of books claiming that some other apochaphal gospel has the real inside story.
I would recommend to you a book called Dethroning Jesus - Exposing Popular Culture's Quest to Unseat the Biblical Christ by Bock and Wallace.
You might also go to William Lane Craig's Virtual Office and read one of his University debates on the Resurrection of Jesus.
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(They didn't really even want to crucify Jesus) and thought it best to split the scene and there are records of someone starting monastaries and churches along the silk route right at the time of Christ, so he was a good candidate for that, and thirdly, there is a tomb in Kashmir with moon shaped arcs cut into the feet of the one inside, named Aziz which was one of the names ascribed to Christ. Archeologists have been trying to get access to that crypt for over 50 years but the fighting in the area makes it extremely dangerous for westerners to be in the area at all.
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This is another conspiracy theory.
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That version of Christ sounds by far the most logical path the the real Christ probably took. I don't think he died on the cross, I particularly don't think he 'ascended' into heaven.
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What do you think Jesus was refering to when He mentioned "My hour" a number of times in the Gospel of John? For instance He would talk about His hour had not yet come.
What do you think His hour was that He constantly refered to?
Ancient secular historians agree that he was executed.
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Recovering well enough to make a quick appearance and then a quick run up the silk route sounds very logical to me. Of course that goes against the fundamental core of Christian dogma so I doubt if any unbiased eyes would ever even consider such a thing.
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Skeptical conspiracy theories come out in regular cycles and make a lot of quick money for some Phd. Stick around and there will be others claiming other ridiculous things.
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Besides, it shouldn't even be called Christianity in the first place, what we know as Christianity was invented by Paul not Christ, he knew in order for there to be a viable religion in Rome you better have miracles and zip zip there were miracles.
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Paul nowhere refers to "Christianity". Paul refered to "the churches". With Paul there was no "anity". There were simply "the churches of God" or the churches of Galatia or the churches of Judea or the churches of the Gentiles or the churches of another region. He also refered to local churches, one in every city where it was established.
The name Christianity is not precious to me. I don't really like the term and am not sure when it began to be used.
I think you should seriously consider if you could be deceived in accepting these conspiracy theories over what the New Testament teaches.
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Originally posted by jaywillThe whole resurrection is the original conspiracy theory. As we cannot prove the story one way or another, it is just up to belief. It is a lot more logical (which of course will raise your hackles even using that term) to conclude that nobody in the entire history of the human race was resurrected from being dead. Reanimated, etc. The Ancient Egyptians tried that for about 5000 years with no success and all the passages in the bible won't convince me it wasn't just the original conspiracy theory. Getting Aloe slavered on his body after cutting down from the cross or tree or whatever, which is what is said in your bible, proves the people doing it thought he was not dead, Aloe is a healing herb not an embalming fluid. NOBODY put aloe on someone they thought dead in ancient times.
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You should read a book called "Jesus Lived in India"
The main theme is Jesus did not die on the cross (even in the bible after he was cut down from the cross he was covered in healing herbs like Aloe not embalming fluids) and recovered enough to make a quick appearance after which he though it best not to be put in accepting these conspiracy theories over what the New Testament teaches.
So who started the churches along the silk route? Those churches are dated right from the time of christ. Jesus sounds like the most logical choice to me.
Of course it is all conspiracy theory, the entire story is conspiracy theory, so what's one more. When peace finally settles in Kashmir it will be very interesting to see if there is anything in that tomb, a person with marks of being crucified, nail scratches or broken bones in hands and feet for instance will lend real evidence for the India variation of Jesus.
Of course Christians will deny deny deny if that were ever shown. You all should be safe from that determination anyway, the condition of the crypt is very poor in a very wet area, the thing was waterlogged when the discoverers found it so there is most likely only a pile of dirt inside anyway which would leave Christians breathing a sigh of relief I am sure. So just another variation on the original conspiracy theory remains.
So what if Paul never called it Christianity, does anyone know when that term came about? He is still the author of the modern form of the religion whatever he called it. Jesus had nothing to do with it. Paul merely transformed it into a form digestible to Romans.
I lived in Jerusalem for three years and there are several purported graves of Jesus, visited them all, and the one thing interesting in all of them is this: in lots of other graves in this dry climate, there are many many remains from that era and earlier. However, there have never been found the bones of the real Jesus. I put it to you like this:
They knew he wasn't dead, there were no bones to inter so any grave would be missing the bones because he split town right after his final appearance. He didn't just 'ascend' into heaven, a central dogma of Christianity, he just walked away in the middle of the night. The thing is, you can never prove what I am saying, only cite biblical verse.
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Originally posted by sonhouse=======================================
The whole resurrection is the original conspiracy theory. As we cannot prove the story one way or another, it is just up to belief. It is a lot more logical (which of course will raise your hackles even using that term) to conclude that nobody in the entire history of the human race was resurrected from being dead. Reanimated, etc. The Ancient Egyptians tri the night. The thing is, you can never prove what I am saying, only cite biblical verse.
The whole resurrection is the original conspiracy theory.
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Paul refered to 500 witnesses, most of which were still alive. They could have come forward to claim that Paul was lying about the resurrection of Christ.
If anyone did there is no record of it.
Something transformed a band of disciples hiding from the authorities to bold witnesses ready to die for their testimony that Jesus was raised.
Why couldn't they simply parade the corpse of Jesus around?
He went off to India ?
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As we cannot prove the story one way or another, it is just up to belief.
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The Christian faith has survived because there is such strong indication that Christ's teachings about how He would manifest Himself to His discples after His resurrection seem to correspond to the experience of His believers.
The Holy Spirit is called the the pledge and the guarantee. The Holy Spirit is the life transforming power which convinces us that Jesus really did come to us in His form as the Another Comforter.
The New Testament says that those who received Jesus were sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps your unbelief is due to the fact that you have not yet experienced this Holy Spirit as a pledge and a foretaste of what is the come. So it is easy for you to talk.
It is not so easy for me to say Christ did not rise because I experience this sealing and this pledge of the Holy Spirit.
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It is a lot more logical (which of course will raise your hackles even using that term) to conclude that nobody in the entire history of the human race was resurrected from being dead.
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I think it is far far more logical that the power of Christ's words and deeds is matched by the power of His resurrection. It matches the authority of His teachings. It harmonizes with the authority with which He spoke.
Rising from the dead is consistent with His style as an extraordinary man of God.
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Reanimated, etc. The Ancient Egyptians tried that for about 5000 years with no success and all the passages in the bible won't convince me it wasn't just the original conspiracy theory.
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Yes, death is a great power. In fact it is the greatest power on earth which no one has been able to resist. God the eternal and uncreated Divine Life has overcome death in the Person of Jesus Christ.
The resurrection of Christ is consistent with the expected concept that the Almighty God of all creation transcends every other force and power in the universe.
It matches the style of God.
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Getting Aloe slavered on his body after cutting down from the cross or tree or whatever, which is what is said in your bible, proves the people doing it thought he was not dead, Aloe is a healing herb not an embalming fluid.
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The Bible shows Jesus eating a piece of fish with the disciples after the resurrection. And Luke records that He presented Himself alive to them with "many irrefutable proofs".
" ... He presented Himself alive after His suffering by many irrefutable proofs, appearing to them through a period of forty days and speaking to the things concerning the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3)
He would appear and He would vanish from their sight. In this way He trained the disciples that though they could not see Him He was still with them. They were trained quite well until they became mighty witnesses of His resurrection.
You see the foundation of the Christian church was lain in this manner. Jesus trained His disciples that His invisible presence would be with them until the consummation of the age.
"And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20)
You however are among those who Jesus said was "slow of heart to believe all that the Scripture has written."
The resurrection of Jesus is the perfect ending to His earthly ministry. It is typical of the power which He displayed prior to crucifixion.
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So who started the churches along the silk route? Those churches are dated right from the time of christ. Jesus sounds like the most logical choice to me.
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I don't know what you mean by churches on the silk road.
A church is not a physical building. Though many mistakenly have the concept that a church is a physical edifice this is not so in the New Testament vocabulary. A church is a called out community. It is the people who are the church and not the physical building.
So I think you are reading your modern misconceptions back into your sketical liturature. You perhaps think that churches along the silk road are buildings.
I think you are probably being duped until the next book comes out.
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Of course Christians will deny deny deny if that were ever shown. You all should be safe from that determination anyway,
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I am not afraid of you wishful "evidence."
The church of God is an anvil that has worn down many hammers.
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So what if Paul never called it Christianity, does anyone know when that term came about?
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I am not sure. Perhaps sometime after Emperor Constitine made the Christian faith the official religion of the Roman Empire forcing unbelievers into the Christian church.
Many unregenerated people were then officially forced to be Christians. They were sometimes led to the baptismal at the point of a spear. Or they were promised rewards to become Christians.
Constantine did not realize that Christians cannot be produced by man made efforts but by a spiritual rebirth from the source of God alone.
As far as I am concerned this mixture of the political will trying to engineer the building of the Christian church may have been the start of the "anity". So you no longer had churches but Christianity.
I'll keep my eye out for an answer.
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He is still the author of the modern form of the religion whatever he called it.
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Paul taught faithfully what his Lord and Master Jesus taught.
ThinkofOne just failed misereably trying to show contradictions between Jesus and the Apostle Paul. You won't fair any better than he did.
In Paul you get Jesus. Paul pioneered into the deep experience of the life in Christ as also John and Peter did and many others. He taught from his experience. And he led others to deeply experience Jesus.
We might regard him as a very successful model of a man living through Christ.
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Jesus had nothing to do with it. Paul merely transformed it into a form digestible to Romans.
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I regard this sentence as an ignorant slander and a lie.
Christ had everything to do with the ministry of brother Paul. Your misdirection is obvious. To attack Jesus you have to attack one so successful at living in oneness with Jesus.
Your attack is really against the Son of God. You misdirect your criticism towards a vessel of His.
Brother Paul was a star model of one who learned to live by the resurrected Christ. He labored more than all the other apostles. And Christ continued His ministry from heaven by utilizing Paul and his co-workers. He also used Peter and John and Jude and James (to an extent).
The work and activity of the resurrected Christ was manifested in Paul and many of his fellow workers. To attack the resurrected Christ then you must attack those who successfully lived in that realm.
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I lived in Jerusalem for three years and there are several purported graves of Jesus, visited them all, and the one thing interesting in all of them is this:
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Everybody knows that there is tourist money to be made by advertizing the supposed grave of Jesus.
This is like "Jesse James' Hideout" advertized all over the American West.
It has no bearing on the authenticity of Christ's resurrection.
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in lots of other graves in this dry climate, there are many many remains from that era and earlier. However, there have never been found the bones of the real Jesus.
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The early forms of Christian apologetics show what kinds of arguments were taking place in the early days of the Christian church.
Surprisingly enough we do not see a lot of debate on whether Jesus rose or not. We see debates against a doctrine that stated that Jesus was too good to be physical. Some forms of gnostic philosophy said that Jesus was too good to be regular human flesh.
These are among the earliest known debates on the subject of Jesus, and not where His bones might be. They didn't say that He didn't live or the He didn't rise. In essence they argued that He was too wonderful to be a regular physical man like you and I.
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I put it to you like this:
They knew he wasn't dead, there were no bones to inter so any grave would be missing the bones because he split town right after his final appearance.
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I don't think you should put your trust in these fanciful ideas.
I think you should consider that you are a sinner in need of redemption. And if not Jesus, who then will reconcile you to God?
I would advize you to ignore these conspiracy legends and listen to all that Jesus taught about His own dying and rising before it occured.
"I am the resurrection and the life." (John 11:25)
He was born to die and to rise. This He considered as His mission on earth:
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17,18)
His rising from the tomb is consistent with the power and authority of His teaching prior to His arrest and persecution.
He challenged His enemies to destroy Him so that God may vindicate Him by raising Him from the dead.
"The Jews then answered and said to Him, What sign do YOu show us, seeing that you do these things?
Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and YOu will raise it up in three days?
But He spoke to of the temple of His body. When therefore He was raised from the dead, HIs disciples remembered that He had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken." (John 2:18-22)
By that time the real temple of God was the man Jesus. In a man the Almighty and Eternal God had His dwelling place in a Man. So His resurrection is consistent with what we would expect of the uncreated Life which is the source of all other lives. He cannot be destroyed and He cannot be held in death.
He is then and now "the resurrection and the life".
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He didn't just 'ascend' into heaven, a central dogma of Christianity, he just walked away in the middle of the night. The thing is, you can never prove what I am saying, only cite biblical verse.
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I site Bible verses because of my own experience. I use to argue a lot in college. I don't remember any of those arguments very well. What stuck with me was the Bible passages. So I usually include them for others who are lost but seeking the truth.
Luke and Mark record the ascending of Jesus. John and Matthew portay Him as never having gone away. There is a balance of truth here. On one hand He left for the third heavens. But on the other hand He is still with us as the Holy Spirit to be our life -
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
"Now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)