Originally posted by stokerSo you buy into the idea that god controls every event on earth, controls all the forces and atoms to result in some climate catastrophe or other?
your right "god only knows"
Just to give a message to mankind? What about all the thousands of animals that died when god gave man that message? Does that not count for anything because man is the 'pinnacle of creation'?
Originally posted by sonhouseI buy into the idea that God not 'god' has total control, and according
So you buy into the idea that god controls every event on earth, controls all the forces and atoms to result in some climate catastrophe or other?
Just to give a message to mankind? What about all the thousands of animals that died when god gave man that message? Does that not count for anything because man is the 'pinnacle of creation'?
to His will, He gives will to others so they can do what they will, even
if He disaproves of their actions, because the will of God is to honor
the will of those He gave will too.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI am not sure I understand the nuance here. You say "God", not "god", has total control? Is God a different being from god?
I buy into the idea that God not 'god' has total control, and according
to His will, He gives will to others so they can do what they will, even
if He disaproves of their actions, because the will of God is to honor
the will of those He gave will too.
Kelly
Are you saying God gives will to god? If God controls everything man certainly hasn't been given control of weather, earthquakes or asteroids hitting the earth, I don't understand the thrust of what you are saying. So if 'God' controls the weather, earthquakes, are you saying every disaster is a message from 'God'? 'God' would create a level 9 tsunami which killed a quarter million people on several continents, you are saying 'God' wanted it that way, to kill totally unrelated people thousands of miles apart for some 'Godly' slight or something? People in Indonesia, Africa, Thailand, etc, died because 'God' was ticked off?
Originally posted by sonhouseYes, there is a difference between god and God, God is the one and
I am not sure I understand the nuance here. You say "God", not "god", has total control? Is God a different being from god?
Are you saying God gives will to god? If God controls everything man certainly hasn't been given control of weather, earthquakes or asteroids hitting the earth, I don't understand the thrust of what you are saying. So if 'God' control ...[text shortened]... People in Indonesia, Africa, Thailand, etc, died because 'God' was ticked off?
only, the Lord of Lords, while a god could be a piece of wood carved
into some form someone wants to call a god, or a god one among
many. I did not say that God gave man control of everything, outside
of man's own will, to do as man wills. With respect to the weather,
and what not, I have always imagined the universe as simply some
thing that started and the processes simply reacts to itself, the great
winding down. Man was given a place of authority too, but authority in
the here and now has some issues during a rebellion.
God's main concern now isn't killing man because He may have seen
something that tic'ed Him off, but saving the lost because God's
wrath is hovering over all of mankind at the moment, and God desires
mercy over wrath, forgiveness over judgment, but it has to all be
done in righteousness or it is meaningless.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI am happy not to have been relieved of the need to believe in such a god or God, it's the same to me, your God is just another god that happen to have attracted a few billion followers for a few thousand years which while I'll give them kudo's for longevity, does not in any way mean they (Christians) are any more special than any other religion. I think Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Budhism, Janism, ANY religion, are simply started by men (and men, not women, I don't know of a single religion started by women, maybe Wiccen). When you have these religions started by men coming from a single individual who happens to have a lot of charisma, just saying, I am the Lord, follow me and you will be redeemed, life in all eternity, etc., it strikes me as a lot of duped individuals, who are of course, unswayable in their dupisms, but they are still duped. My evidence for this is, as I think I have said before, a GOD would not have mankind have so many religions that for one thing, allow, condone, or command, the death of other humans because they are not of the right religion.
Yes, there is a difference between god and God, God is the one and
only, the Lord of Lords, while a god could be a piece of wood carved
into some form someone wants to call a god, or a god one among
many. I did not say that God gave man control of everything, outside
of man's own will, to do as man wills. With respect to the weather,
and what not, I ha ...[text shortened]... ess over judgment, but it has to all be
done in righteousness or it is meaningless.
Kelly
For another, because they are universally started by men, not women, women ALWAYS end up as second class citizens, something I am quite sure no real GOD would allow, I think such a GOD would come down heavy on these monsters who would kill women because they 'shamed the family' and such, come down REAL heavy on such beasts. No such thing happens, the excuse always being, GOD gave us free will. I say GOD did no such thing because such beastial behavior exists, not to such a violent degree in christianity, not in THIS century anyway, but a real GOD would never allow such inequitude to take place. That is besides all the debate over 'original sin' and such, Born into sin, one of the most reprehensible concepts ever devised by demon men, as nothing more than a child control technique, I think irresponsible in the extreme, an example not of Godliness but in an incredible display of absolute arrogance and fraud.
But I have said all this before to deaf ears, all my saying thus just puts me in the eyes of the religious, as coming from the devil and therefore only worthy of scorn or pity for a lost soul like me to be in such a condition and to remind the religious why they have to work all the harder to obey their God's commands, as reprehensible it looks to me. On the local level, most religious ones try to do good but they don't have any idea how much they are downtrodden by the very faith they give their lives for, having people like the Pope, who is seen as an intermediary between the rough crowd and his so-called God. This to me is another act of unbridled arrogance, to think that a real God would NEED some intermediary to tell its story. A real God would need no such person, no person to come down to earth and 'die for our sins' and so forth, that is just another story cleverly designed to sway the unsuspecting. Oh well, I am talking, obviously, to deaf ears. Suffice it to say I cannot wait till the day the human race grows out of the need for these 'Gods' and grows to rely on the human ability to decide for ones self what is right and wrong without the need to reference it all to a 'God'.
Originally posted by sonhouseman was the last of his creations, and he gave names to all so he put man above, so he tended the garden, animals are not judged as we will be as they neither know they are naked by sinning. we all die regardless of how.
So you buy into the idea that god controls every event on earth, controls all the forces and atoms to result in some climate catastrophe or other?
Just to give a message to mankind? What about all the thousands of animals that died when god gave man that message? Does that not count for anything because man is the 'pinnacle of creation'?
Originally posted by stokerNo, woman was last in his creation. Her name was Eve.
man was the last of his creations, and he gave names to all so he put man above, so he tended the garden, animals are not judged as we will be as they neither know they are naked by sinning. we all die regardless of how.
No, some animals are not naked, they have furs. As old ladies, they are not naked either. Strip off an animal's fur and he would die of embarrasment, as would the old lady.
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouseI don't think so, but there you go, I think God started it all and not
I am happy not to have been relieved of the need to believe in such a god or God, it's the same to me, your God is just another god that happen to have attracted a few billion followers for a few thousand years which while I'll give them kudo's for longevity, does not in any way mean they (Christians) are any more special than any other religion. I think Ch es self what is right and wrong without the need to reference it all to a 'God'.
man so we both are walking around with a different world view, a
different faith. Reality is what it is, and God is either the Great I AM
or not, I believe He is. I understand your position about if God were
real, but reject it nonetheless as I see a war going on here for the
hearts, minds, souls of mankind since I also acknowledge evil and
Satan as well. It isn't a war of equal powers, a real contest of strengths;
that ever was an issue, but that Satan is going down, and he is now
attempting to take as many of us along with him as possible.
The judgment will be between righteousness and evil, at the end
Judgment day all will be revealed, the hidden put on display and
everyone will see things for what they really were. The sad thing will
be that such a great salvation was offered to all, and only a few
answered the call given. If one of the many other religions can save
others they will, but in the end there is only one Jesus Christ, all
other belief systems, are a system of us working to establish our
own righteousness, or a rejection of the term altogether, if they
stand the test of reality that will be good, but the warning as gone
out, they will not.
I agree a lot of evil occurs among mankind in the name of good, we
have people killing others in the name of prolife, there are a lot of
things we both acknowledge as wrong and evil, but that is the way of
man right now. Man uses whatever tool s/he can to acquire what we
want, and sometimes at great cost to others or ourselves, and we do it
all in many names including God's, but that does not change one
thing about God being just or righteous, it only says man does things
for man's own reasons, and man does it while attempting to justify
him/herself in the name of things greater than themselves.
Kelly
Originally posted by FabianFnasAren't christians going to be in deep doo doo when a new improved species of humans comes along, extremely intelligent, like the average IQ start at what we call 200, live ten times longer, think ten times faster, ten times stronger, etc., and completely reject all of mankind's collective religions, pronouncing them abominations. I cannot wait for that day. Of course the frothing at the mouth religious right would pronounce them demons and do everything in their power to kill them off, wait, that story has already been written...
No, woman was last in his creation. Her name was Eve.
No, some animals are not naked, they have furs. As old ladies, they are not naked either. Strip off an animal's fur and he would die of embarrasment, as would the old lady.
Originally posted by sonhouseWhat if one of them announces himself as Jesus?
Aren't christians going to be in deep doo doo when a new improved species of humans comes along, extremely intelligent, like the average IQ start at what we call 200, live ten times longer, think ten times faster, ten times stronger, etc., and completely reject all of mankind's collective religions, pronouncing them abominations. I cannot wait for that day. ...[text shortened]... nd do everything in their power to kill them off, wait, that story has already been written...
3 edits
Originally posted by sonhouse=====================================
I am happy not to have been relieved of the need to believe in such a god or God, it's the same to me, your God is just another god that happen to have attracted a few billion followers for a few thousand years which while I'll give them kudo's for longevity, does not in any way mean they (Christians) are any more special than any other religion. I think Ch es self what is right and wrong without the need to reference it all to a 'God'.
A real God would need no such person, no person to come down to earth and 'die for our sins' and so forth, that is just another story cleverly designed to sway the unsuspecting.
========================================
I don't know if I should trust your skeptical attitude on this.
Peter wrote: "For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you to power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty."
Yes there are many religions. It may be hard to explain why that has to be so. But at least we see God in the Bible directing history into a climax in which there are not many different religions.
Besides, religion can be a kind of temporary shelter until people come to the knolwedge of the one truth. Religion sometimes acts as a preservative to prevent society from collapsing altogether.
Anyway, there are plenty enough wrongdoings and crimes from unreligious people so as to make your position not that much better. Plenty of suppsedly "free-thinkers", agnostics and atheists are screwing over people just as much if not more.
So you take away all religions so you can sleep at night. You still have 1001 opinions from all these religiously free people. There's no concensus of opinion on the way to live among all your supposedly enlightened unreligious folks.
For every philosophy there is an opposite and equally strong philosophy.
In the mean time Jesus Christ still occupies a class of character and morality in which it is doubtful there is an equal.
So I just as soon listen to what He has to say.
Originally posted by sonhouseYou what this sounds like to me? Someone giving credit to their
Aren't christians going to be in deep doo doo when a new improved species of humans comes along, extremely intelligent, like the average IQ start at what we call 200, live ten times longer, think ten times faster, ten times stronger, etc., and completely reject all of mankind's collective religions, pronouncing them abominations. I cannot wait for that day. ...[text shortened]... nd do everything in their power to kill them off, wait, that story has already been written...
belief system and suggesting some force will out will prove their
beliefs are just and will in the end win out, much like some of the
people whom you rail against from time to time.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJaySome force will prove out their beliefs? What I was suggesting was the idea that christians view mankind as the pinnacle of creation. I was wishful thinking of the next step in evolution, if a truly superior being was born, a new species human shaped but more advanced, and a separate species unable to reproduce with humans, christianity would have something unfathomable to face, something that would throw a definite monkey wrench, so to speak, into the pinnacle of creation thing. If such a being came into life, christians would have no choice but to conclude it was the product of the devil and have no compunction about trying to wipe it out.
You what this sounds like to me? Someone giving credit to their
belief system and suggesting some force will out will prove their
beliefs are just and will in the end win out, much like some of the
people whom you rail against from time to time.
Kelly
4 edits
Originally posted by sonhouse==============================
Aren't christians going to be in deep doo doo when a new improved species of humans comes along, extremely intelligent, like the average IQ start at what we call 200, live ten times longer, think ten times faster, ten times stronger, etc., and completely reject all of mankind's collective religions, pronouncing them abominations. I cannot wait for that day. ...[text shortened]... nd do everything in their power to kill them off, wait, that story has already been written...
Aren't christians going to be in deep doo doo when a new improved species of humans comes along, extremely intelligent, like the average IQ start at what we call 200,
==================================
Well, It think you should realize that as good as intelligence is it is not everything that makes a good human being.
Some awful smart people can be terrible scoundrels. You must have realized that by now.
The guy waiting to hack into your PC to steal your identify and money for example. His IQ and smarts are utlilized to commit a crime.
There has to be something in addition to high IQ to make a great human being. Don't you think ?
=======================================
live ten times longer, think ten times faster, ten times stronger, etc., and completely reject all of mankind's collective religions, pronouncing them abominations.
===========================================
My gut feel is that that kind of world is NOT going to be as rosy as you imagine.
For example psychologist B.F. Skinner wrote a contraversial book in the 70s called "Beyond Freedom and Dignity". He espoused his ideas about behavior engineering to produce a utopian society.
Christian philosepher Francis Schaeffer wrote a reply called "Back To Freedom and Dignity".
Don't be too quick to assume that some Technocracy run by the super intelligent will be a happy place to live.
=====================================
I cannot wait for that day. Of course the frothing at the mouth religious right would pronounce them demons and do everything in their power to kill them off, wait, that story has already been written...
===================================
Don't throw away your Bible because of some rather vocal political activists - Left or Right.