1. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Aug '08 12:03
    I assume the creationist takes the bible literally and cannot see evolution being the driving force for the development of life on Earth. But if you believe god controls the evolution of life on earth then you would seemingly have to conclude that god drives every action on earth also, like Katrina, or the 9 richter scale earthquake in Indonesia a couple of years ago. If god controls all, then it knows exactly when and with what severity a natural disaster will strike and would actively cause all that to happen.
    It would also know exactly the outcome of all human events and would actively push people to evil deeds like Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hitler, Stalin, etc. It seems to me you can't have it both ways, god controls the destiny of life forms on earth but doesn't control earthquakes? If god has infinite power then the position of every atom in the universe is known exactly and all the reactions we see in science are actively controlled by god. How can you one one hand believe god controls evolution and on the other hand not beleive god controls the action of every atom in the universe? How can you have it both ways?
  2. Subscriberduecer
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    20 Aug '08 12:08
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I assume the creationist takes the bible literally and cannot see evolution being the driving force for the development of life on Earth. But if you believe god controls the evolution of life on earth then you would seemingly have to conclude that god drives every action on earth also, like Katrina, or the 9 richter scale earthquake in Indonesia a couple of ...[text shortened]... beleive god controls the action of every atom in the universe? How can you have it both ways?
    please don't lump all "creationist" christians into one lump. I believe that God created the universe, and that evolution was one of the "tools" he used to complete his work.
  3. England
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    20 Aug '08 12:15
    well we do but on the human side you equated that is different to the earth side. humans wanted and still do want free will this is known to god so lets us while having a in put thro scripture, the deciver has input thro personal desire. Nature tho is known what will happen by god from quakes to rain, sunshine to volcanos, he knows the outcome and plans accordingly.
  4. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Aug '08 12:20
    Originally posted by stoker
    well we do but on the human side you equated that is different to the earth side. humans wanted and still do want free will this is known to god so lets us while having a in put thro scripture, the deciver has input thro personal desire. Nature tho is known what will happen by god from quakes to rain, sunshine to volcanos, he knows the outcome and plans accordingly.
    If god 'knows the outcome' why would god need to plan accordingly?
    Wouldn't it be more to the point to assume god forced the earthquake or hurricane to some end only known to god?
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    20 Aug '08 12:21
    God is the creator. With or without evolution. In case you haven't noticed, you have a mind of your own, like Hitler, Stalin, etc. You make your own choices. What's the significance of me believing in God if God forced me to do it? It's a choice and me making that choice makes is so more meaningful for God. God is not playing sims with the earth. God is not sending hurricanes, although God made the earth capable of producing hurricanes.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Aug '08 12:30
    Originally posted by C U Soon
    God is the creator. With or without evolution. In case you haven't noticed, you have a mind of your own, like Hitler, Stalin, etc. You make your own choices. What's the significance of me believing in God if God forced me to do it? It's a choice and me making that choice makes is so more meaningful for God. God is not playing sims with the earth. God is not sending hurricanes, although God made the earth capable of producing hurricanes.
    And you know that how?
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    20 Aug '08 12:35
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    And you know that how?
    I'm studying the bible and going to church and church groups discussing the bible.
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    20 Aug '08 12:381 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I assume the creationist takes the bible literally and cannot see evolution being the driving force for the development of life on Earth. But if you believe god controls the evolution of life on earth then you would seemingly have to conclude that god drives every action on earth also, like Katrina, or the 9 richter scale earthquake in Indonesia a couple of beleive god controls the action of every atom in the universe? How can you have it both ways?
    I don't see it the way you do.

    When you have a pain in your body, that alerts you that something is wrong. Headaches, sneezing, vomiting are all indicators that something with your body is not right.

    God placed man at the pinnacle of creation and established a special relationship with man. Man rejected that relationship. It is not an easy thing for us to understand but when man fell the creation collapsed into a problematic place. The creation under man fell into damage following its head - Man.

    To remind man that everything is not normal God has allowed the damage to the harmonious operation of nature to become an occasional problem. This reminds man of his need of dependence upon God whom he rebelled against. The Katrinas, tornadoes, earthquakes, deseases have a function to remind man that everything is not alright.

    My bases for believing this is the Bible's discreption of the salvation of man. Apparently it is accompanied by the return of nature to a fully harmonious and paradise like state.

    This fact with some others eventually led me to believe that nature's friendliest function is closely related to man's restoral of proper relationship with God.

    Having said that I would add, I do not claim to understand everything about the matter.
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    20 Aug '08 12:42
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I don't see it the way you do.

    When you have a pain in your body, that alerts you that something is wrong. Headaches, sneezing, vomiting are all indicators that something with your body is not right.

    God placed man at the pinnacle of creation and established a special relationship with man. Man rejected that relationship. It is not an easy thing for ...[text shortened]...

    Having said that I would add, I do not claim to understand everything about the matter.
    well said🙂
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Aug '08 14:45
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I don't see it the way you do.

    When you have a pain in your body, that alerts you that something is wrong. Headaches, sneezing, vomiting are all indicators that something with your body is not right.

    God placed man at the pinnacle of creation and established a special relationship with man. Man rejected that relationship. It is not an easy thing for ...[text shortened]...

    Having said that I would add, I do not claim to understand everything about the matter.
    So god runs things but lets men screw up? What about the animals that go extinct? Did they upset god and that was its answer, kill the buggers?
    Its god's mysterious plan to cause earthquakes to shake us up?
    What about earthquakes that happened before man was around?
    Do you believe there may be life on planets around other stars in the universe? Would those life forms be under gods hand too?
    It seems to me the human race is not doing such a great job of taking care of the planet. Will we be blamed for the deaths of whole species or is that not a cause for worry when it come to god's wrath?
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    20 Aug '08 14:53
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So god runs things but lets men screw up? What about the animals that go extinct? Did they upset god and that was its answer, kill the buggers?
    Its god's mysterious plan to cause earthquakes to shake us up?
    What about earthquakes that happened before man was around?
    Do you believe there may be life on planets around other stars in the universe? Would tho ...[text shortened]... for the deaths of whole species or is that not a cause for worry when it come to god's wrath?
    Extinct animals didn't upset God. It was the cause of humans. You are right, we humans are screwing up badly. How many christians are there in the world that commit their lives to God? Not many...

    I personally believe that earth is the only planet with life on it, but if there was life on another planet, they will be under God's hand since He is the creator of the universe.

    If you think that there were earthquakes before mankind, then I assume that you are an evolutionist. Since I'm not, I can't answer that.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    20 Aug '08 14:57
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I assume the creationist takes the bible literally and cannot see evolution being the driving force for the development of life on Earth. But if you believe god controls the evolution of life on earth then you would seemingly have to conclude that god drives every action on earth also, like Katrina, or the 9 richter scale earthquake in Indonesia a couple of ...[text shortened]... beleive god controls the action of every atom in the universe? How can you have it both ways?
    Depends on what you mean when say evolution, I can see small
    changes in life does that mean evolution is true, if so does that mean
    that creation isn't true? The point I believe you are missing is that you
    are assuming if one is true the other is not. I honesty do believe
    God created all things, and that does not dispel evolutionary change
    in life either. The point of contention is when and at what point did
    all of this change start? If Biblically God created all life on the earth
    and from that point on changed started, we would still see change
    in life today, if God created everything and from non-life evoutionary
    change started we would still see change in life today. As I pointed out
    else where too, even the time factor isn't written in stone as near as
    I can tell, yet people dismiss God out of hand, for that reason.
    Kelly
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    20 Aug '08 15:051 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I assume the creationist takes the bible literally and cannot see evolution being the driving force for the development of life on Earth. But if you believe god controls the evolution of life on earth then you would seemingly have to conclude that god drives every action on earth also, like Katrina, or the 9 richter scale earthquake in Indonesia a couple of beleive god controls the action of every atom in the universe? How can you have it both ways?
    Going to your bad things happen portion of your post. Do you think
    these bad things would happen if God was not real, or that the only
    thing that makes them bad is that if God were real? I suppose that
    the thing that upsets about these things if God were real is that He
    could stop them, and for reasons of His own that you are at this point
    of time not aware of doesn't. God does let things play out we reap what
    we sow, if you sow selfishness in your life like buying drugs instead of
    food for your kids, your kids go without. If you buy food for your kids
    they eat if you feed them and so on. The earth was cursed due to the
    actions of man, a result of man's sin, so bad things are playing out
    as they are. That does not mean that was what God wanted, only what
    occurs when we reap what we sow, another byproduct of having the
    will to do what we will with what was given us.
    Kelly
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    20 Aug '08 15:11
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I don't see it the way you do.

    When you have a pain in your body, that alerts you that something is wrong. Headaches, sneezing, vomiting are all indicators that something with your body is not right.

    God placed man at the pinnacle of creation and established a special relationship with man. Man rejected that relationship. It is not an easy thing for ...[text shortened]...

    Having said that I would add, I do not claim to understand everything about the matter.
    I rec'd this one, have not used that tool in years. 🙂
    Kelly
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    20 Aug '08 15:31
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So god runs things but lets men screw up? What about the animals that go extinct? Did they upset god and that was its answer, kill the buggers?
    Its god's mysterious plan to cause earthquakes to shake us up?
    What about earthquakes that happened before man was around?
    Do you believe there may be life on planets around other stars in the universe? Would tho ...[text shortened]... for the deaths of whole species or is that not a cause for worry when it come to god's wrath?
    ==========================
    So god runs things but lets men screw up?
    =============================


    That is a contemptuous and frustrated way to express the relationship between the Creator and His creature.

    I have a hard time with that. But I will try to reply to some of your other problems. It is not as if I never thought about these things.


    ============================
    What about the animals that go extinct? Did they upset god and that was its answer, kill the buggers?
    ==============================


    That is another expression of frustration and contempt.

    However, I do believe in a pre-Adamic world which displayed the characteristics of a rebellion against God.

    Much of science today is leaning towards trying to explain what could have wiped out the previous lives on earth. We have talk about killer comets, killer astroids, killer gas. Many of the artistic pictures you see of dinosaurs often have a picture of a exploding volcano in the backround.

    The picture I have is sketchy. But I think the previous order of things was wiped out by a divine judgment. Then God created man and said "Let THEM have dominion" (my emphasis).

    I think the previous world had something to do with the ancient history of God's enemy Satan. I think that God did not totally destroy this enemy. But instead he created a new creature to replace him, shame him, and coordinate with God to judge him.

    You see the Creator would not directly war against the ancient rebellious creature. He created a triangular situation. Now you have three parties.

    You have God as one party and Satan as a second party. Between the two you have human beings. The direction the the human being turns, whether to God or to God's enemy, had something to do with the destiny of the creation.

    These things are not easy to comprehend. And no doubt I, just as well as you, could make lampooning remarks and exploit these concepts to make them sound foolish.

    You see. I think the Bible is God's revelation to man. But I don't think it is exhaustive. I don't think He has told us EVERYTHING just to satisfy our curiosity. I think God has told us the most essential things.

    The things which He has revealed to us He does so only because it is related to our need for salvation. But just to tickle our curiosity about the ancient past, I don't think the revelaton of the Bible does that.

    So my picture is incomplete and I do not understand everything about it. I think you laugh and jolly about it to your own peril.

    But there are some unkowns.

    I am totally comnvinced that if we want to understand the nature and destiny of man and who and what he is and why he exists in the universe - we have to study Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    I believe that only by studying Jesus Christ can we arrive at the truth of human existence.

    ============================
    Its god's mysterious plan to cause earthquakes to shake us up?
    =====================================


    At this present time I think the things which bother us probably are remnants of phenomenon which had some useful purpose.

    Perhaps the common cold is a perverted phenomenon which had some more useful purpose. The same might be true of earthquakes. They may have had and probably still have some useful purpose. But they also are a bother to us now because of the collapse of Adam's world in his rebellion.

    You might say that Adam JOINED the ancient rebellion of Satan. He was not suppose to do that. He was suppose to replace the previous authority so that creation would be under the human dominion.

    It is possible that the previous order of things was so alien to us that we would not understand it if it was described to us.

    =================================
    What about earthquakes that happened before man was around?
    ===================================


    As I said above, I think that Adam joined an ancient rebellion the remnants of which were still evident in the earth.

    Whereas he was suppose to have dominion over the earth he failed that mandate and joined the ancient opposition party. But God has a saving salvation and cannot be defeated.

    The Invisible War" by Donald Barnhouse
    published by Kregal (I think) would be a good book for you read some month.

    =================================
    Do you believe there may be life on planets around other stars in the universe?
    =========================================


    I don't know.

    ===================================
    Would those life forms be under gods hand too?
    ====================================


    I think that the whole universe was created for man.

    At this stage I think that the universe is the real estate of Jesus Christ. I do not know to what extent he will use all of that real estate. My gut feel is that He will extend His eternal kingdom to the stars.

    This is only my speculation. I don't know. But eternity is a long time and God is of limitless resource and power.

    ==============================
    It seems to me the human race is not doing such a great job of taking care of the planet. Will we be blamed for the deaths of whole species or is that not a cause for worry when it come to god's wrath?
    ======================================



    You must understand that all the wrath that God really needs occured on the cross of Jesus Christ. Whatever sins man has commited whether great or small whether forgivable or unforgivable whether public or private - all sins were judged in Jesus Christ when He died on the cross.

    He took the wrath of God so that we need not take the wrath of God. That is the important point of the Gospel that you should remember.

    Whatever sins commited by man against the environment were judged when Jesus died for you and I.

    So we should thank Him and receive Him as our Lord and Savior and Guide to guide us back to the eternal purpose of God.
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