ToO,
I think that your real motive is to make ACCUSATION against the disciples of Christ.
In the Old Testament there was a prophet by the name of Balaam. He was hired to curse Israel. Whenever he tried to curse Israel God changed his prophecy. In a sense Balaam wanted to point out the problems of Israel, And Israel did have problems. We all know.
But God saw the tactic of the enemy. When Balaam tried to curse God made him utter a blessing instead. The enemy king then took Balaam to another angle and said in essence look at them from here and try it again. When that failed then he took Balaam to another side and said for him to look at Israel from that angle. It failed again.
This lesson is very instructive to the people of God. It means that the Devil will only try to accuse, accuse, accuse God's people. From this angle he would try to find fault. From another angle he will try to find fault. From yet another angle he will try to curse and find fault.
In God's eyes the Hebrews were lovely and with no fault. Your accusation does not reflect God's concern for the Christians. Your accusation reflects the Satanic desire to undue the redemptive work of Christ.
Perhaps you don't realize that this is how you are being utlilized. But I expose the tactic behind your ideas. I really think that your real interest is to DISQUALIFY the Lord's redeemed people. You hope that ACCUSATION will weaken our resolve and our belief that we belong to Jesus Christ. In essence your accusation is:
"You so called Christians cannot be of Christ, and cannot have eternal life, and cannot be born of God because you still sometimes make sins."
This is your modern day Balaam, hired out to curse the people of God. We overcome you by the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 12:11)
This post is for Satan and his evil angels and demons.
Satan, this is written for you.
Go and look at the blood of Jesus for one half hour. It rebukes all of your accusations.
Satan you were defeated by Christ on the cross. And your destiny is the damnation of eternity.
The blood of Christ answers every one of your accusing arrows aimed at the people of God. We overcome you by the blood of the Lamb.
And as the church of God we will give command to the angles who will throw you into the eternal fire.
This is written for you Satan. Jesus is Lord.
Originally posted by jaywillYeah, you tell 'em who's boss, jaywill!
[b]This post is for Satan and his evil angels and demons.
Satan, this is written for you.
Go and look at the blood of Jesus for one half hour. It rebukes all of your accusations.
Satan you were defeated by Christ on the cross. And your destiny is the damnation of eternty.
The blood of Christ answers every one of your accusing arr ...[text shortened]... s who will throw you into the eternal fire.
This is written for you Satan. Jesus is Lord.[/b]
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAnd once this is achieved there is no further process? Logically this would suggest that anyone who is truely following Jesus's teachings and is saved must be doing so 100% and no further process is required because the "process" must have been completed by then in order to be saved.
I wasn't going to bother to address this, but hopefully by doing so, you'll finally have to come to terms with your poor reasoning abilities.
The difference is that I believe that the "process" has to be completed PRIOR to having "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation". You believe otherwise.
You continue to draw some of the most ridiculous conclusions.
I assume that you must have completed this "process" yourself (otherwise you would be guilty of rank hypocrisy). If so then you must logically have completed this "process" and have no further need of growth and development at all. If this is the case why don't you just ascend into heaven right now in a huge flash of perfection? (LOL).
Either ToO has no personal knowledge of what he is talking about and is just waffling OR he has overcome and is perfect already with no need for any process / growth /development. Either option is not pretty , one makes you a hypocrite the other makes you mind boggling arrogant.
You also logically exclude Jesus from the "process" because Jesus to you is someone who only cleanses us from sin AFTER we have gone through this "process" (yes?). Jesus in your view does not save us from anything because we actually can overcome sin ourselves without his help? We can be free of sin without even recourse to the blood of Christ (which he himself refered to) ???
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The difference is that I believe that the "process" has to be completed PRIOR to having "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation". You believe otherwise.
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I think Knightmeister has read the situaition quite well.
And also the more I think about it and consider Paul's usage of the phrase "eternal life" or "life" the more I think the opposite is true from what you say. You have even less ground for your complaint than I initially assumed.
Actually if you went through all the passages of Paul speaking about eternal life, I wager that the MAJORITY of them imply the enjoyment of eternal life as a destination to arrive AT AFTER Christian maturity.
This, I believe, is diametrically the opposite of your criticism of Paul. I read you as Paul teaching "cheap grace" or let us say "cheap eternal life".
But considering most of Paul's passages on life and eternal life, he actually displays the opposite tendency.
Here's one example from Paul's most basic epistle on Christian doctrine:
" To those who by endurance in good works seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, life eternal." (Romans 2:7)
What do you say then about Romans 2:7? Look at the context again.
"But, according to your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each according to his works. To those who by endurance in good work seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, eternal life. But to those who are selfishly contentious and disobedient to the truth and obey unrighteousness, wrath and fury."
Do you need more examples ?
Originally posted by jaywillJust because you wish something to be true, doesn't make it true. Your argument makes little sense and is a desparate attempt to distort this passage into your belief system.
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You took this statement by John:
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"
And countered it with this:
"For John to say this he must mean that the one born of God will eventually mature into one who no longer habitually commit sins."
You've completely changed the meaning of John's stateme ...[text shortened]... life and being willing to die with Christ that we also may live with Him.
Let's look at Young's Literal Translation:
1 John 3:6-9
6 every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him. 7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous, 8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
Nowhere does John speak in terms of "habitually" or "eventually." John plainly states that "he is not able to sin" and "every one who is reamining in him doth not sin." I don't know how John could have been more explicit. You change the meaning to suit your own purposes.
Originally posted by jaywill"You so called Christians cannot be of Christ, and cannot have eternal life, and cannot be born of God because you still sometimes make sins."
ToO,
I think that your real motive is to make ACCUSATION against the disciples of Christ.
In the Old Testament there was a prophet by the name of Balaam. He was hired to curse Israel. Whenever he tried to curse Israel God changed his prophecy. In a sense Balaam wanted to point out the problems of Israel, And Israel did have problems. We all kno to curse the people of God. We overcome you by the blood of the Lamb [b](Rev. 12:11)[/b]
This is a complete distortion of what I'm saying. I'm saying that you CAN be of Christ. I'm saying that you CAN be born of God. You need only follow the commandments of Jesus as He teaches.
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love"
Ask yourself this, "Do I love Jesus?".
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me...If a man love me, he will keep my word...he that loveth me not keepeth not my words"
Originally posted by jaywillThis is written for you jaywill:
[b]This post is for Satan and his evil angels and demons.
Satan, this is written for you.
Go and look at the blood of Jesus for one half hour. It rebukes all of your accusations.
Satan you were defeated by Christ on the cross. And your destiny is the damnation of eternity.
The blood of Christ answers every one of your accusing ar ...[text shortened]... s who will throw you into the eternal fire.
This is written for you Satan. Jesus is Lord.[/b]
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say?"
Originally posted by jaywillYou're going to have to decide what you believe here. Earlier you seemed to be arguing (mostly via Paul) that one can have "eternal life" while continuing to commit sin. Now you seem to be arguing that Paul says that this isn't true. Which is it?
[b]==================================
The difference is that I believe that the "process" has to be completed PRIOR to having "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation". You believe otherwise.
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I think Knightmeister has read the situaition quite well.
And also the more I think about it and consider Paul's usag ...[text shortened]... ey unrighteousness, wrath and fury."[/b]
Do you need more examples ?[/b]
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'm wondering if the solution to this problem is the word "commit" ? Would you make any distintion at all between a man who wilfully goes out to sin and consciously choose a life of sin and a different man who is trying his hardest to live a sinless life but finds that on occasions he is less than perfect in this.
You're going to have to decide what you believe here. Earlier you seemed to be arguing (mostly via Paul) that one can have "eternal life" while continuing to commit sin. Now you seem to be arguing that Paul says that this isn't true. Which is it?
Most people seem to be able to make this distinction regarding someone's motives and inner life. For example , a man who is tired and stressed and in a rash moment swears at his wife is in a different catagory from a man who is choosing consciously to be verbally abusive. The difference might be that the first man would be repentant whereas the second might think little of it.
Is there any room in ToO's world for such subtlties?
I tend to believe that Jesus knows the difference between someone who is trying to follow him but has failings and a man who is just not interested. Both men may sin to various degrees but only one man's heart is set on Jesus.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==========================================
You're going to have to decide what you believe here. Earlier you seemed to be arguing (mostly via Paul) that one can have "eternal life" while continuing to commit sin. Now you seem to be arguing that Paul says that this isn't true. Which is it?
You're going to have to decide what you believe here. Earlier you seemed to be arguing (mostly via Paul) that one can have "eternal life" while continuing to commit sin. Now you seem to be arguing that Paul says that this isn't true. Which is it?
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Sining is undesirable, period.
I do not want to allow you to menuevor me into a position which seems to be encouraging Christians to sin. That is the danger of this defense.
With some people the more I argue that one does not lose the gift of eternal life because of sinning, the more they may think I am working hard to make allowances for Christians to sin.
I am not interested in sins. I am not interested in "HOW MUCH CAN A CHRISTIAN WITH ETERNAL LIFE SIN ?" That is not my focus. Do we have an understanding on that ?
Having said that we turn now to Paul's epistles. Romans is the basic book of Paul on Christian doctrine. It is marvelous. He lays a firm foundation for justification by faith. And this Luther utilized to fuel the protest against Catholic errors.
In that same book of Romans, life and eternal life in its full enjoyment is inseparately linked to righteous living through transformation. That was the point of the passage I quoted to you.
The question I have for you is why is your scope so limited that you cannot perceive that the NT can speak about two things at one time - (1) justification and redemption securing the GIFT of eternal life AND (2) sanctification and transformation for this life to imparted into the personality?
You can't seem to understand that these TWO themes could both be present in the New Testament. With you it has to be one or the other.
It is true that some circles of Christianity abuse "cheap grace" on one extreme, and some others stress justification through law keeping on the other extreme. The truth is not with either of these extremes. It is with a middle way.
"For we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Romans 5:10)
With the Christians in Rome, in the past they have been RECONCILED to God through the death of His Son. That means they are no longer enemies but are children of God.
As to their future there is a "MUCH MORE" to be experienced. Much more they shall be saved in His life. This is their sanctification in an organic manner by the growth of Christ within them.
This is why I talked about a judicial redemption and an organic salvation.
I have been consistent in my thinking. And if I take extra caution to make myself perfectly clear to you you will probably say I am too verbose.
Originally posted by knightmeisterOne problem here is that Christians do not overcome their weaknesses by getting absorbed by them. The more you struggle against sin in your own power the faster you will go down.
I'm wondering if the solution to this problem is the word "commit" ? Would you make any distintion at all between a man who wilfully goes out to sin and consciously choose a life of sin and a different man who is trying his hardest to live a sinless life but finds that on occasions he is less than perfect in this.
Most people seem to be able to mak ...[text shortened]... interested. Both men may sin to various degrees but only one man's heart is set on Jesus.
We have to look away to Jesus. We have to forget about our sins and enjoy the presence of Jesus.
It is easier for us to continue our striving in our own will power against the sins of the flesh. It is harder to believe that we have been crucified with Christ - that we have died with Him and are resurrected with Him.
Release does not come from the Christian gritting her teeth to one more time try in her own power to resist temptation. That does not work. That is the law.
One must enjoy Jesus the living Person as their all and all. "Lord Jesus, I don't even want to deal with it. YOU deal with it."
This is the way of escape. This is the way to partake of the divine nature. We have to look away unto Jesus.
Now, this passage shows that transformation is indeed a matter of looking AWAY unto Jesus and not trying to grit our teeth to keep the law. And this passage also shows that transformation is a matter of process - from one degree of glory to another degree, to another degree, to another degree, to another degree --- on and on and on into maturity.
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.
And we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
The Spirit of Jesus is "metabolically" transforming the Christian into the image of Christ, by his loging more and more time beholding and reflecting the glory of the Lord. That is to linger in His presence. That is to enjoy His presence within in more and more situations of life.
The from glory to glory to glory the "metamorphasis" (Liturally I think in Greek) transforms the beholder through a life time of beholding and reflecting into the same image of the Lord.
Originally posted by jaywillI do not want to allow you to menuevor me into a position which seems to be encouraging Christians to sin. That is the danger of this defense.---------------jaywill-----------------------------
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You're going to have to decide what you believe here. Earlier you seemed to be arguing (mostly via Paul) that one can have "eternal life" while continuing to commit sin. Now you seem to be arguing that Paul says that this isn't true. Which is it?
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Sining is un ...[text shortened]... tion to make myself perfectly clear to you you will probably say I am too verbose.[/b]
In his own mind he will manoevre you anyway . He has a polarised position. One must either be sinless (and have eternal life as a result) or you are making excuses and allowances for Christians to just continue sinning reacklessly. There can be no in betweens for ToO. You either overcome sin 100% or you are damned.
No matter how many flies in the ointment you place before him he cannot entertain them. His mindset prohibits any thoughts along those lines. For him the evidence is irrelevant. He knows what he believes and he's sticking to it , no matter what.
btw- Has he called you a liar yet?
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt sounds like you have more previous experience with this poster than I do.
I do not want to allow you to menuevor me into a position which seems to be encouraging Christians to sin. That is the danger of this defense.---------------jaywill-----------------------------
In his own mind he will manoevre you anyway . He has a polarised position. One must either be sinless (and have eternal life as a result) or you are making e ...[text shortened]... t he believes and he's sticking to it , no matter what.
btw- Has he called you a liar yet?
Thanks again for the heads up. I think this kind of coordination helps us not to waste time and energy.
Maybe, just maybe someone reading along might get some help.
I was kind of wishing we would take this debate into the book of Hebrews which I believe was also authored by Paul.
He has not called me a liar yet to the best of my knowledge.