[/Originally posted by jaywill"Once you are born of God and receive the gift of eternal life you cannot be unborn again and lose the gift of eternal life."
ToO,
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What I don't believe is the concept that one can have "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation" while one continues to commit acts of sin.
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I am limited on time. References you will have to look up.
This is a tricky complaint. Because answerin ou apparently discard much of the book of Acts. This is not good.[/b]
You are not yet "born of God" if you continue to sin.
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
John 3:5-21
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "..."For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
"Besides all this I showed you a number of CLEAR examples that what Jesus taught Paul taught. Same tone, same flavor, same concept, same warnings, same sobriety, same seriousness"
But it isn't the same concept. Jesus taught that one cannot have "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation" while one continues to commit acts of sin.
John 15:7-11
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love"
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
"Thanks for FINALLY revealing that you apparently discard much of the book of Acts."
"FINALLY"? This is really rich coming from someone who has repeatedly stated that he would address John 8 and still has yet to do so. You're really something else.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI wasn't going to bother to address this, but hopefully by doing so, you'll finally have to come to terms with your poor reasoning abilities.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I don't recognize "the need for growth and development." I very much recognize that it is a process. What I don't believe is the concept that one can have "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation" while one continues to commit acts of sin.---------------------ToO------------------------------------------------- sin being overcome so easily suggests you do not understand what sin actually is.
The difference is that I believe that the "process" has to be completed PRIOR to having "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation". You believe otherwise.
You continue to draw some of the most ridiculous conclusions.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn fairness to you -
I wasn't going to bother to address this, but hopefully by doing so, you'll finally have to come to terms with your poor reasoning abilities.
The difference is that I believe that the "process" has to be completed PRIOR to having "eternal life"/"heaven"/salvation". You believe otherwise.
You continue to draw some of the most ridiculous conclusions.
There are some passages which have that tone. And there are some passages which express the matter differently.
Let's embrace whatever the Bible says in its full scope. I just noticed your post above which I think I should reply to.
ToO
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You are not yet "born of God" if you continue to sin.
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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The crux of the matter is abiding in that seed.
The issue is having the seed and the seed growing and having its way in you.
Understanding John's word here as "no Christians ever commit sin" will simply not work.
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John 3:5-21
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "..."For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
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Light is progressive and gradual.
If God shined His complete light into you you would not be able to stand it. You would go crazy with conviction. The coming of light is gradual and relative to spiritual age.
In Proverbs somewhere it says that the way of the righteous is like to dawning of the day, something close to that. The meaning is the the light from God becomes brighter and brighter.
Once again you seem to want to deny process, growth, and development in the life of the one born again.
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"FINALLY"? This is really rich coming from someone who has repeatedly stated that he would address John 8 and still has yet to do so. You're really something else.
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Hold on. I wrote many things in reference to that passage. I am not sure you took any of it.
That's not terribly encouraging to spend time to labor more, not when you simply can't or won't take it.
You reject the book of Acts and you insist that I elaborate on John 8. Why? Because you have preconceived ideas about what you will believe and the Bible is only important to you as far as it reinforces those beliefs that you want to have.
For someone who arbitrarily rejects Acts because it doesn't "ring true" I don't have a lot of confidence that any clarification of a John 8 will help.
Face it. You subscribe to the "Holey Bible". That is the Bible full of holes.
In this discussion your hole exist in discarding the speaking of the resurrected and ascended Christ in the book of Acts.
Originally posted by jaywill"Understanding John's word here as "no Christians ever commit sin" will simply not work."
ToO
[b]==========================================
You are not yet "born of God" if you continue to sin.
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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The crux of the matter is abiding in that seed.
ng the speaking of the resurrected and ascended Christ in the book of Acts.[/b]
I think most people are quite aware that the vast majority of Christians commit sin. However John plainly states "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin". Evidently the vast majority of Christians are NOT yet born of God.
"The crux of the matter is abiding in that seed.
Once again look at what Jesus says it means to "abide" in John 15:11
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love"
"Once again you seem to want to deny process, growth, and development in the life of the one born again."
Once again you seem to want to deny that one who is "born again" does not commit sin.
"For someone who arbitrarily rejects Acts because it doesn't "ring true" I don't have a lot of confidence that any clarification of a John 8 will help."
My rejection of those verses are not at all "arbitrary". I reject them because I reject the teachings of Paul, who not only fits the description of a false prophet, but his teachings are contrary to the teachings of Jesus and truth.
"Hold on. I wrote many things in reference to that passage. I am not sure you took any of it. That's not terribly encouraging to spend time to labor more, not when you simply can't or won't take it."
While you initially expressed your thoughts on John 8:32-36, you have not addressed my response despite continually saying that you would.
Take a look at your post:
3 Aug 12:48 (GMT -7)
"I am not finished yet with your take on John 8...I am doing my best to get into your thought. I have not finished saying what I would like to about John 8...Continued below with John 8:32-36."
And you still haven't directly responded to it. I made my post on 2 Aug 21:05 (GMT -7), with a followup on 3 Aug 6:31 (GMT -7) and several other reminders since.
On the other hand, with Acts, you asked the question on 3 Aug 4:58, which I ignored since I thought the answer obvious given my take on Paul. You asked again on 3 Aug 12:48 (GMT -7) and I responded on my next post on 4 Aug 17:44 (GMT -7).
Like I said, all this nonsense about "evading" and "FINALLY" is really rich coming from you. Note that my post from 2 Aug 21:05 (GMT -7) was BEFORE you first asked about Acts and you only had to ask twice. You're a real piece of work.
And you still haven't addressed it....
ToO,
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"Understanding John's word here as "no Christians ever commit sin" will simply not work."
I think most people are quite aware that the vast majority of Christians commit sin.
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It will not make sense because the epistle is written to Christians and contains instructions what the believer must do if he or she does sin.
For that reason it makes no sense. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteousn to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)
John includes himself by saying "If we". To restore fellowship the believers simply confess their sins. God is Faithful to the propitiation of Christ to forgive them. And it is a matter of righteousness.
Notice that John did not say He is faithful and merciful. He said God is faithful and RIGHTEOUS. If God did not forgive their sins He would be unrighteous. He has to forgive because they have trusted in the sacrifice of His Son and God cannot go back on His promises.
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However John plainly states "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin". Evidently the vast majority of Christians are NOT yet born of God.
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A person is not born again because she arrives at the place where she does not commit sins. A person is not born again because they have earned it through works of the law to no longer sin.
For John to say this he must mean that the one born of God will eventually mature into one who no longer habitually commit sins.
Since we have the steadfast promise of God that He will present the believers before Him holy and without blemish -
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love. predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself ... " (Eph. 1:4)
The destiny of the sons who have the Father's seed is to be without blemish and holy as God is. In this sense John proclaims that he who is born of God does not sin.
He is not saying one born again will have no need in his journey to confess his sins to be cleansed, obviously (1 John 1:9)
The verse you refer to should also be connected with I John 5:4:
"For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world - our faith."
"Everything" here refers to that specfic part of man that has been born again - the human spirit. There is no sin in the human spirit. The human spirit is made one spirit with the divine Spirit in the new birth - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 1:6).
The regenerated human spirit is the sinless part of man that cannot sin and that overcomes the world. However, we need to learn to set our mind ON that spirit and walk and live by the spirit. And that takes a long time for we are not use to living by the regenerated spirit. We are use to living either in our fallen soul or worst, in our fallen flesh.
The born again Christian needs to be strengthened into that sinless realm within him. Paul refers to being strengthened into the inner man:
"That He [the Father] would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be STRENGTHENED with power by His Spirit INTO THE INNER MAN.... that Christ might make His home in your hearts through faith..." (Eph. 3:16)
1.) The inner man relates to the regenerated human spirit.
2.) The regenerated human spirit is that part that is born of God and overcomes the world - "Everything that is born of God overcomes the world .."
3.) The Christian who is born again needs to be STRENGTHENED into the inner man. He needs to be excercised to abide in that realm, linger in that realm, remain in that realm, and log more and more time in that realm.
That is how he overcomes sin. That is how he overcomes the world. He excercises faith in the indwelling Christ in his regenerated spirit - the inner man. And subsequently Christ moves into his personality and into his soul.
If you say that this is irrelevant talk that only exposes that you have no experience in these things. And if you pull that stunt on me again I will be pretty assured that what your real interest is is to make ACCUSATION against Christians.
I'll speak more about this if I need to.
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Once again you seem to want to deny that one who is "born again" does not commit sin.
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I don't think you are really interested in the entire epistle of First John. I think you only are interested in taking one useful passage to support your heresy of "sinless perfection".
In the epistle John refers to three levels of maturity -
1.) little children
2.) young men
3.) fathers
See 1 John 1:12-14.
These are levels of life maturity. He is not refering to the natural life. He is refering to the life that was received from being born again. If sinless perfection is what John was teaching is the characteristic of all who are born again, then he would have no need to designate different levels of maturity. There would only be ONE group of immediatly mature and perfected sinless people.
You will ignore this sound reasoning most likely.
Also John 3 proves that your concept of no born again person needing to occasionally confess his sins is wrong.
"Beloved, now we are the children of God ..."
The Apostle does not say that we have not YET become the children of God. That would mean that the WE, including John himself, had not yet been born of God. Since they have in the PAST been born of God John writes:
"Beloved, NOW we are the children of God"
According to your logic if they still have to confess their sins they have not YET become the children of God. Then we go on -
"Belovced, now are we the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested we will be like HIm because we will see Him as He is.
And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, even as He is."
1.) Now the believers are born again children of God. They are NOT waiting to be born again after sinless perfection is achieved.
2.) There is something more to be manifested which they do not yet know. But it will make them "like Him". In some sense then they are in the process of becoming like Him.
3.) Having this hope in them causes them to purify themselves. But if they are already completely purified then there would be no need for them to "purify themselves".
According to your logic, if they are born again the purification has been accomplished.
Positionally it has been accomplished as Christ is their righteous standing before God forever. However dispositionally they are in the process of purifying themselves. And this purifying is the sanctification of becoming progressively more and more free from sinning and living in the natural fallen Adamic self.
Therefore chapter 3 of First John refutes your concept of sinless perfection.
But there is more. John goes on to warn those who are born again. Remember, we know his audience is born again because he writes "NOW ... we are the children of God."
He warns the born again childen of God in this way:
"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have obldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 JOhn 2:27)
This means that there is the possibility of:
1.) A born again person not abiding in Him otherwise there would be no need for the warning about something that is automatic default.
2.) A born again person may be "put to shame from Him at His coming".
This is not a matter of feeling ashamed for not abiding. It is a matter of Christ putting that born again person to shame. That is assigning him some position or portion of shame.
The parables in Matthew about the Lord's servants and foolish virgins agree. And Paul's word about the Christian losing his reward and suffering loss agree. The born again person, if he does not learn to abide in Him, might be saved yet so as through fire and lose the reward of some time.
This is not eternal perdition or he would not be SAVED yet as through fire.
The bottom line here is a warning to all Christians. Just because you are born again does not excempt you from learning to ABIDE IN HIM.
Now what are the benefits of ABIDING in Him?
He warns the children this way: "Everyone who abides in him does not sin (3:6) .. everyone who has been begotten of Him does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he has been begotten of God (3:10)
The seed is sinless. The seed overcomes the world. So the Christian must allow the SEED to grow into all of his soul. He must log more and more time ABIDING in that sinless seed realm in his inner man - be strengthened into the inner man to REMAIN there.
Otherwise when Jesus comes, having still n ot learned to ABIDE in the regenerated spirit, he may be put to shame by Jesus. Yet he cannot lose his eternal redemption and cannot be deprived of the gift of eternal life.
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"For someone who arbitrarily rejects Acts because it doesn't "ring true" I don't have a lot of confidence that any clarification of a John 8 will help."
My rejection of those verses are not at all "arbitrary". I reject them because I reject the teachings of Paul, who not only fits the description of a false prophet, but whose teaching are contrary to the teachings of Jesus and truth.
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ToO,
Continueing on your rejection of the Acts passages -
First of all this is a lame excuse. The passage where Jesus speaks to Ananias telling him that Paul is to be a special vessel, is the speaking of God quite apart from Paul's ideas.
Why then do you reject Acts chapter 9 ??? At best you could only say that reject LUKE who is telling you what happened to Saul of Tarsus.
Secondly, you may reject Paul now relating the story in Acts 22. However, it was not Paul who told you that the Holy Spirit separated Barnabus and Paul to be apostles (Acts 13:1-4)
God had Paul write 13 or so of the 27 books of the New Testament. He neither sought YOUR permission nor MINE. He places members in the Body of Christ AS IT PLEASES HIM and NOT as it pleases you and I.
Lastly you have utterly failed to produce anything to me that suggests the same warnings of Christ about righteous living were not exactly repeated BY PAUL. YOU HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED unfaithfulness of Paul's part.
Like the Jews who followed Paul around to persecute him, you also are just throwing up dust into the air and making a senseless commotion.
The truth of the matter is that you are persecuting Jesus Christ IN Paul. That is what you are doing. It is Christ that you are opposing. That is the Christ WHOM Paul lived and served faithfully. I see you. Your problem is with Jesus not Paul.
Some of us are not fooled by your misdirection.
Demonstrate then Paul's unfaithfulness ! If you cannot demonstrate in any of his epistles his unfaithfulness then your argument is through.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne=======================
[b]"Understanding John's word here as "no Christians ever commit sin" will simply not work."
I think most people are quite aware that the vast majority of Christians commit sin. However John plainly states "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin". Evidently the vast majority of Christians are NOT yet born of God.
"The crux of the mat piece of work.
And you still haven't addressed it....
Take a look at your post:
3 Aug 12:48 (GMT -7)
"I am not finished yet with your take on John 8...I am doing my best to get into your thought. I have not finished saying what I would like to about John 8...Continued below with John 8:32-36."
And you still haven't directly responded to it. I made my post on 2 Aug 21:05 (GMT -7), with a followup on 3 Aug 6:31 (GMT -7) and several other reminders since.
[b]
On the other hand, with Acts, you asked the question on 3 Aug 4:58, which I ignored since I thought the answer obvious given my take on Paul. You asked again on 3 Aug 12:48 (GMT -7) and I responded on my next post on 4 Aug 17:44 (GMT -7).
Like I said, all this nonsense about "evading" and "FINALLY" is really rich coming from you. Note that my post from 2 Aug 21:05 (GMT -7) was BEFORE you first asked about Acts and you only had to ask twice. You're a real piece of work.
And you still haven't addressed it....
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You are confusing me on some of these technical dates and post references.
I have answered you a LOT. Much of it you ignore. There may be some things I did not address.
I am looking. However, you have more than enough proof that dispositional "sinless perfection" upon the moment of regeneration is the wrong understanding of the New Testament.
I'll try to restict the next post to John chapter 8.
Jesus said in John 8 - "Everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin".
That is true. I have been a slave of sin. There are still some things that I need to be free from.
Sometimes I have outbursts of anger. My conscience convicts me that I need to confess to the Lord Jesus that I lost my temper.
The apostle John told His audience of born again believers to confess their sins to remain in fellowship with the Father and the Son.
A soiled conscience can shipwreck one's faith. As Christian we should learn to keep short accounts. That means as SOON as we become aware that we have offended God's holiness we should confess and thank God for the precious blood.
So I still need to be set free from some things by the Son. ToO, says "that means you have not been born again."
No it means the opposite. Because I have been born again my conscience is being made progressively more and more sensative to what I do. Before I was born of God I sinned and had no feeling of wrong doing. IF you told me I had sinned I would say "Where's your horse and buggy? C'mon, this is modern times. Everybody does .....".
When I became born of God my conscience began to convict me about things of which I had not the slightest feeling of remorse about. To take things from the office was stealing. To exagerate was to lie. To be late was to take advantage of others, Many many other things gradually came to light.
I expect much MORE to come to light in the future. In fact ... in fact .. the more you grow in Christ the MORE you realize how much of a hopeless sinner you are apart from Him.
It is not really a feeling of getting better. It is a feeling of being aware of how easy it is to offend my conscience.
ToO, you are welcomed to say "Well jaywill, you obviously have NOT been born again." Say that if you want to. I don't care. You weren't there the night Jesus came to me. You know nothing about it. No one was there to instruct me.
Your understanding of those passages is a bit warped.
There is a passage in the Old Testament that says in some translations "Money solves everything". Now I could be like you and isolate that verse and emphasize it. Then I would go out to preach. "Don't you know that the Bible says 'MONEY SOLVES EVERYTHING?"
You have done a similar thing to take a passage and not consider the whole scope of the Bible. "No born again person can sin".
I call this your dispositional sinless perfection upon regeneration.
I am so glad John wrote what he wrote and the way in which he wrote it. I would never change that passage one iota. But it cannot mean your concept of dispositional sinless perfection upon regeneration.
My regenerated spirit is sinless. I have to learn to abide, remain, live by, set my mind on that spirit, and be strengthened into that realm. That requires a life time of practice and patience.
If not then WHY so many epistles to nourish, instruct, teach, train, guide, and support, help, assist, encourage the disciples ?
If they were instantaeously without need of discipleship upon being born again then there would be no need for most of the New Testament. Did John chapter 8 END the Bible ?
Originally posted by jaywill"For John to say this he must mean that the one born of God will eventually mature into one who no longer habitually commit sins.
ToO,
[b]======================================
"Understanding John's word here as "no Christians ever commit sin" will simply not work."
I think most people are quite aware that the vast majority of Christians commit sin.
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It will not make sense because the epistle is written to Christians and contain chings of Jesus and truth.
======.....[/b]
Let's take a closer look:
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here John is echoing the teachings of Jesus:
John 8:34-35
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...Depart from me, you who work iniquity"
John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
John 3:20-21
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Is this how you reconcile contradictions between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus? By changing the entire meaning of the passages that support the teachings of Jesus and contradict the teachings of Paul?
Here's what you need to understand: The teachings of Jesus are true. The teachings of Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus. Therefore, the teachings of Paul must be false.
Instead you embrace the teachings of Paul. You place the teachings of Paul above all others and must resort to changing the meaning of the teachings of Jesus and here, John, in order to try to "reconcile" them. You place the teachings of Paul at the center and change the meaning of the teachings of Jesus in order to make them "fit" and tell yourself, "For [Jesus] to say this he must mean..."
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==================================
[b]"For John to say this he must mean that the one born of God will eventually mature into one who no longer habitually commit sins.
Let's take a closer look:
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here John is echoing the teachings of Jesus:
Jo make them "fit" and tell yourself, "For [Jesus] to say this he must mean..."[/b]
Let's take a closer look:
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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First of all you are quoting the Apostle John who also was faithful to Christ.
And here the Apostle Paul says virtually the same thing:
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according the the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Rom. 8:4)
Paul has spent a good deal of time in earlier chapters discribing how no one can keep the law and how all are condemned by it. Now he says that to those who walk by the Spirit, the just requirement of the law is fulfilled.
Of course to walk by the Spirit one must FIRST be born of the Spirit. So John and Paul are teaching the same thing.
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Here John is echoing the teachings of Jesus:
John 8:34-35
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
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I already provided three passages from Paul's letters which state virtually the same thing.
They were Galatians 5:19-21
1 Corinthians 6:9
Ephesians 5:5)
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Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...Depart from me, you who work iniquity"
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And now we are repeating ground which has already been covered.
You are READING "enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" But that is NOT what you are mentally thinking. You are mentally inserting "have eternal life".
It is your improper understanding to make exactly equivalent entering into the kingdom of the heavens with having eternal life.
We are now simply repeating. Paul already showed you in three passages some people who would not inherit the kingdom of God. The audience he was writing were Christian brothers.
As long as one is in that condition he will be excluded from the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens which manifestation occurs after the second coming of Christ and occupies 1,000 years before the eternal age.
By that time all Christians who were given the gift of eternal life will have been sufficiently discplined in the "outer darkness" to now be ready to join the rewarded in the eternal age.
I already showed you the example of the unforgiving servant who was handed over to the tormentors UNTIL he should pay all that he owed. This does not mean to pay for ones sins. It does mean to learn the lesson the hard way to forgive the brother who has offended you from the heart.
That was one concrete example of a saved servant of Jesus being punished AFTER the second coming for a temporary period of time.
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John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
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Of course Paul echoes this in many places:
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
To be born of the Spirit in the human spirit in John 3:6 is exactly equivalent to being JOINED to the Spirit in the human spirit to be "one spirit".
Here again PAul echoes John 3:6:
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the childen of God." (Rom 8:16)
1.) Jesus says that the small s human spirit is BORN of the capital S Spirit of God.
2.) Paul echoes by saying the small s human spirit is joined to the capital S Holy Spirit to be "one spirit". The joining is the birthing. The birthing in John 3 is the joining and remains the uniting in 1 Corithians.
3.) Paul further echoes John 3:6 by saying that the Holy capital S Spirit witnesses with the small s human spirit to testify that the believers are children of God. Of course this is so because the second birth leads to the regenerated being one of the children of God related to the Father by the divine life.
There is therefore perfect correspondence between Christ's words in the Gospel of John and Christ's further words through His apostle Paul in First Corinthians and Romans.
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John 3:20-21
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
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Paul echoes these teachings in a number of places. For example:
[b]
1.) First Thessolonians 5:5 - "For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as the rest do, but let us watch and be sober."
2.) Ephesians 5:8 - "For you were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), proving what is well pleasing to the Lord.
3.) Phillipians 1:12a,13 - "The Father ... Who has delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."
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Here's what you need to understand: The teachings of Jesus are true. The teachings of Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus. Therefore, the teachings of Paul must be false.
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I say you have been refuted on this. You have not proven contradictions from Paul against the quotations of Jesus in the Gospels.
Furthermore you have proved that you do not even accept all the speaking of Jesus in the New Testament. You reject the post resurrection speaking of Jesus in the book of Acts.
Part of your problem is that you are unfamiliar with Paul's letters. I would guess that you picked up your Paul VS Jesus not from your own study of the New Testament. Probably some skeptical book filled your mind with this false "expertise" and you felt you never needed to check it out.
Originally posted by jaywillYou managed to completely miss the point of my post. Evidently putting in supporting information only serves to confuse you.
[b]==================================
Let's take a closer look:
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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First of all you are quoting the Apostle John who also was faithful to Christ.
And here the A ...[text shortened]... and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."[/b]
You took this statement by John:
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"
And countered it with this:
"For John to say this he must mean that the one born of God will eventually mature into one who no longer habitually commit sins."
You've completely changed the meaning of John's statement to fit your belief system.
You've done similar things with statements made by Jesus.
I'd comment on your assertion that Paul echoes Jesus, but I'm afraid that'll only confuse you.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne[/b] ========================================
You managed to completely miss the point of my post. Evidently putting in supporting information only serves to confuse you.
You took this statement by John:
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"
And countered it with this:
"For John to say this he must mean that the one born of God will eventually mature into one who no longer habituall ent on your assertion that Paul echoes Jesus, but I'm afraid that'll only confuse you.
You took this statement by John:
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"
And countered it with this:
"For John to say this he must mean that the one born of God will eventually mature into one who no longer habitually commit sins."
You've completely changed the meaning of John's statement to fit your belief system.
You've done similar things with statements made by Jesus.
======================================[/b ]
The word there commit is translated my version as "practice".
Here is how 7 - 9 read in the RcV:
[b]"Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who practices righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.
He who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning, For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the words of the devil.
Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God."
Concerning the word practice -
" cannot sin - cannot live habitually. A regenerated believer may fall into sin occasionally, but the divine life as the divine seed in his regenerated nature will not allow him to live in sin. This is similar to a sheep; it may fall into the mud, but its clean life will not allow it to remain and wallow in the md as a swine would."
The analogy should be helpful even though sheep are really not all that clean.
I think that John's absolute way of expression here emphasizes that the destiny of a fully matured born again person will eventually be without sinning.
In the mean time we overcome the accuser of our conscience with the blood of the Lamb.
[b]"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now is come salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authroity of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and because ot he word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul lives even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)
The job of Satan is to ACCUSE the Christian brothers. He accuses them day and night. While the Christian brothers are growing and maturing the Devil and Satan is there to accuse them.
The Bible says that the Christian brothers overcame the accuser because of the blood of the Lamb. The redemptive blood of Jesus shuts the accusing mouth of Satan.
It is interesting that the Bible does not say that firstly they overcame the accuser because they were perfect. It does not say that they first overcame the accuser because they no longer made any mistakes. Nor does it say that they overcame Satan because they never fell into an occasional sin.
The fact of the matter is that NO Christian, no matter HOW mature or how free from sinning he is graduates from his need to apply the blood of Christ. Satan's accusation is that he is not perfect therefore he has no right to be the Lord's or to be a disciple.
In a sense this ToO, is what you are doing. You have an accusation that if one falls into sin he cannot be born again. So practically speaking for you there are no born again Christians at all. None have the right to say they are Christians or they are Christs.
Apparently you have a passage or two which seems to argue for your accusation. But the rat we can smell. I doubt that you are really interested in the Christian life. I could be wrong. But I think what your real hidden interest is is to make accusation against Christians.
How do you know that you are not carrying on the accusing work of the Devil who day and night only accuses Christians.
For this reason everyone who is born again needs first to have a firm foundation in Christ's redemption and to know that the blood of Jesus answers every accusation of the enemy against their conscience.
This is not a call to cheap grace nor a license to live a loose sinful life. It is a realization that as we grow we will sometimes fall. We will sometimes fail. Satan would love nothing more than for Christian to GIVE UP.
"OH, I am STILL sinful. I must not be one of Christ's. I must not be born of God yet. I might as well GIVE UP. I CANNOT BE A CHRISTIAN."
This is the result of taking in the Satanic lies of accusation. Though such accusation may have some bases for fact, it is nevertheless, destructive in its intent.
And we will overcome this accusation by the blood of the Lamb FIRSTLY. Then we go on to overcome by the word of our testimony - proclaiming the spiritual facts. And lastly by denying our soul life and being willing to die with Christ that we also may live with Him.