Originally posted by jaywillI agree with much of this. Jesus paints a picture of a world where the Truth is under threat from a clever enemy of God. It seems as if in ToO's world God has pretty much lost , unless ToO can bring us back from the mess Paul has created (LOL).
Today, the modernist's attack against Paul is usually a veiled attack against Christ.
1.) Critics deny the resurrection of Christ
2.) They deny the indwelling of Christ.
3.) They regard the teachings of Christ as additions to the law of Moses - the Christian commandments to be kept. The resurrection of Christ is irrelevant and not necessary. You ...[text shortened]... table He probably did teach. The sayings we do not like are the errors added latter.
BTW- Do you think ToO actually believes God exists , or believes in the ressurection / miracles etc?
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Let's look at the words of Jesus:
ThinkofOne,
[b]========================================
Did you completely miss my point for quoting Matthew 7:15-20? Here's the point again.
Paul fits the description of a "false prophet" as described by Jesus. Why do you chose to follow the teachings of Paul, rather than the teachings of Jesus. Especially in the light of this warning from brings our attention. He was faithful to Christ's teaching as an apostle.
John 8:32-36
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
Jesus has set up a dichotomy here. If you commit sin, you are a slave. It is an either/or situation. You cannot be a semi-slave. You cannot continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation".
Let's look at the words of Paul:
Romans 7:15-25
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."
Clearly Paul is a slave to sin. Can one continue to be a slave, i.e., continue to sin and be righteous? Once again, let's look to Jesus:
Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Clearly not. Paul appears to justify his continued slavery by asserting something that is not supported by the words of Jesus.
Romans 8:1
"There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and of death."
What Paul seems to be describing is a release from responsibility for ones own sin. In other words, one can continue to commit acts of sin, but won't be condemned for them.
This goes against the words of Jesus.
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven... Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
You can choose to follow the words of Jesus or you can choose to follow the words of Paul.
Originally posted by PinkFloydYou might want to ask yourself who you call "Lord". The words of Jesus ring true. One must be righteous and, in being righteous, act righteously in order to have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Whoever directs one away from this truth is a false prophet.
Many of the posts here seem to be a bit unfair. Some want to throw out Paul, because his teachings were not in sync with those of Jesus. Someone else wants to chuck out John because he declares Christ to be divine. I suppose one has the right to accept some parts of the bible as sacrosanct and consider others to be non-canonical (or even wrong), but it he inerrant word of God, and which ones we aren't -- then, I could be better prepared.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneCorrect ToO--I am just not convinced that Paul is one of those false prophet guys.
You might want to ask yourself who you call "Lord". The words of Jesus ring true. One must be righteous and, in being righteous, act righteously in order to have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Whoever directs one away from this truth is a false prophet.
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou're the one who made the assertion that my two statements were irreconcilable. I've pointed out that they aren't.
If you explained your position properly then it might be easier. I asked you what you thought a "tarnish" might be and you didn't answer.
Either you know or you don't know.
If you know then you are not saying , if you don't then what are you waffling on about.
You continue to make vague , woolly statements and then sit back and play the "wh should be self evident to all. But it's not. Possibly because it doesn't make sense.
Now you've been going on about the meaning of "tarnish" when I keep pointing out to you that in my original statement, I plainly state that "I have no particular problem with this concept, though I don't necessarily subscribe to it either." In other words, it's not my concept and I'm indifferent to it.
Need I point out to you that YOU subscribe to the idea that the blood of Jesus is needed to cleanse sin. The only thing that you don't agree with is WHEN. Why you keep going on about semantics is beyond me.
It's really remarkable how, in your zeal to "make points", you get lost in your own arguments.
Originally posted by PinkFloydFrom what I gather, those who believe that they can continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salavation" seem to point to Paul as the source of their beliefs. This goes againt the words of Jesus. So one of them is not a true prophet. If you also look at the description of a false prophet that Jesus gives and Paul's description of his sin in Romans 7, it's difficult not to think of Paul as fitting that description. The way I see it, "good fruit" are acts of righteousness and "bad fruit" are acts of sin. If you can only get "bad fruit" from a "bad tree" as Jesus states, I'm thinking there is only one logical conclusion to draw.
Correct ToO--I am just not convinced that Paul is one of those false prophet guys.
ThinkOfOne,
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Let's look at the words of Jesus:
John 8:32-36
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
sin.=======================================
And Paul of course teaches something very much the same:
"Do not be deceived: God us not mocked; for whatsoever a man sows, this he will also reap. For he who sows unto his own flesh will reap corruption of the flesh, but he who sows unto the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life." (Gal. 6:7,8)
Please note that Paul is speaking to Christian disciples -"Paul an apostle ... to the churches of Galatia" (See 1:1,2)
Both warnings of Jesus and of His apostle caution disciples not to regard causually living in sin. The following warnings of Paul are of the same nature, mainly, the Christian must not remain in immaturity to live in sin or they will not inherit the kingdom of God -(See Galatians 5:21; Eph. 5:3-5; 1 Cor. 6:9)
Now, "the slave does not continue in the house forever" means that as long as a person is in that condition it is impossible for him to be built up into the house of God. He or she must be transformed. That is set fully free. And Christ is able to do that with the disciple's cooperation.
It does not mean that after becoming a follower of Jesus, if you sin afterwards you will perish in eternal damnation.
Now I notice that you did not include in your quote the conditional in verse 35 - "If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed."
IF the Son sets the disciple free he shall be free indeed to be fully built up into the house of God.
Paul repeats the exact same concept many places including here:
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
Notice here Paul emphasizes not simply regeneration or rebirth but being led by the Spirit. Led by the Spirit is a matter of step by step, moment by moment, in a daily way, submitting to the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The children are born of God (8:16). But the sons are led.
Sons led by the Holy Spirit is equal to sons being made "free indeed."
There is no concept of Christians being instantly mature and perfected in thier characters the very second they are saved. They are justified forever through the blood of Christ as to their position. There standing is righteous positionally.
Dispositianally, they are to grow, mature, develop, cooperate with the process of maturing. For example, in Christ's great prayer for the disciples:
"And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one; I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one ..." (John 17:22,23a my emphasis)
Notice perfected is an ongoing development. The divine life planted within as a seed must grow and spread its enfluence into the whole soul. This is the process of being set free indeed by the Son.
To be built up into the Father's house there must be the perfecting. And such perfecting occurs in the church age and also in the age to come of 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
The one who is saved will never perish forever " And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father who, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand." (John 10:28-30)
The Son's hand of love and the Father's hand of power assure that the one who believes into Jesus will never perish forever. But he cannot be organically built up into the house of God unless there is transformation unto maturity.
Therefore the continuing sinful disciple will not be in the house of God forever.
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Jesus has set up a dichotomy here. If you commit sin, you are a slave. It is an either/or situation. You cannot be a semi-slave. You cannot continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation".
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I already showed you that the prayer of Jesus was that they would be "perfected" (John 17:23) . The ongoing process of perfection will result in them bearing His glory that He has given to them. It is in seed form. The seed of divine life must be watered and grow.
Paul speaks the exact same matter. Neither Christ nor His apostle expected dispositional transformation to be instantaneous from the moment one becomes a Christian.
In the same gospel of John to which you appeal, Jesus speaks of abiding in Him. He is the true vine and the disciples are the branches of the vine (See John 15)[/b] Abiding takes time. Abiding means remaining or lingering. That requires time.
The ones who abide bear much fruit. Any statements of punishment directed towards those who are disciples of Jesus refer not to eternal punishment but dispensational loss or reward and punishment either in the church age or in the millennial kingdom.
Eternal redemption is a gift. One can lose the reward of the millennial kingdom. One cannot lose the gift of the eternal New Jerusalem. All who enter into the New Jerusalem will have been transformed into the image of Christ.
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Let's look at the words of Paul:
Romans 7:15-25
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."
Clearly Paul is a slave to sin. Can one continue to be a slave, i.e., continue to sin and be righteous? Once again, let's look to Jesus:
==============================
Foolish one. Yes when his mind is not set on the spirit he is such. When he is not led by the Spirit he is such. When he does not abide in Christ he is such.
But all his exhortations are to abide in Christ, set the mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is in the believer, be led by the Spirit.
Chapter 7 is followed by chapter 8. And while the disciples are maturing and developing no one can bring an accusation against them:
"Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and , rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:33,34)
While the disciples are growing and cooperating with the developing salvation Christ is interceding for them. You cannot condemn them or bring a charge against them.
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Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
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It is the habit of some Bible readers to regard all acts of discipline and punishment by God to refer ONLY to eternal damnation.
This passage does not mean that once a disciple bears some bad fruit he is immediately assigned to perish forever.
The wise Father has many ways to deal with the improper fruit bearing besides eternal punishment. He can cut you down in a number of ways.
In short not all cutting down of the wrong fruited tree necessarily means eternal punishment.
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Clearly not. Paul appears to justify his continued slavery by asserting something that is not supported by the words of Jesus.
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That is rediculous nonsense.
Does this sound like Paul is encouraging continued slavery?
" But I say to you, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh (Gal. 5:16)
Even within the disciples the Holy Spirit strives against the lust of the flesh. And the fallen flesh lusts against the Spirit. Does Paul encouage the disciples to just give in to the lustfull flesh? OF course he does not. Rather he teaches them to "Walk by the Spirit"
The Spirit is the Son in His pneumatic form. The Spirit will set them free indeed:
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)
Does this soound like Paul is teaching the disciples to continue in slavery?
" It is for freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of slavery. " (Gal. 5:1)
"If we live by the Spirit, let us also WALK by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25 my emphasis)
"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For he who sows unto his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows unto the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life. (Gal. 6:8)
You have no case whatsoever. And the Paul of your imagination has absolutely no correspondence to the Paul of the New Testament.
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Romans 8:1
"There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and of death."
What Paul seems to be describing is a release from responsibility for ones own sin.
========================================
Wrong again. Not at all.
[b]"There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of......
ThinkOfOne,
Wrong again concerning Romans 8:1.
"There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and od feath ... that the righeous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." (Rom. 8:1,2,4)
The "condemnation" that Paul is speaking of is the self condemnation that he has just described for NOT being able to do what one knows is righteous.
"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! ... " (Rom. 7:25a)
The self condemnation of feeling wretched, weak, powerless, unable to resist the known evil, unable to perform the known good ... this is the condemnation from the self towards the self that one is released from who is in Christ Jesus.
Why? He is released from this self condemnation because he discovers a new power within - the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This Spirit of life works like the law of gravity. It is spontaneous and powerful to free the believer.
But, as chapter 8 goes on to teach, one must set the mind on the spirit where the Spirit of life resides. And one must learn to be led by the Spirit to mature from the child of God to a son of God.
The Paul you imagine does not exist in the New Testament.
You have no case here at all.
ThinkOfOne's basic concept is that Paul watered down the teaching of Jesus.
There is no such Paul in the New Testament. This is purely the Paul of ThinkOfOne's imagination.
Paul's teaching of the indwelling Christ - the Christ who in resurrection is the life giving Spirit, the Lord Spirit living in the disciples, echoes the concepts Jesus spoke of before His death and resurrection.
To my knowledge, ThinkOfOne has not explained why the Apostle Peter recommended the younger Apostle Paul so highly.
Peter may have heard Paul say some things differently from the Master in style. But clearly, he and the other original apostles recognized the wisdom and the grace that were in Paul.
So, ThinkOfOne, why did Peter so highly recommend Paul's ministry if Paul was perverting what Peter had learned in those three and one half years with Jesus?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==================================
Let's look at the words of Jesus:
John 8:32-36
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
Jesus has set up a dichotomy here. If you co o follow the words of Jesus or you can choose to follow the words of Paul.[/b]
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven... Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
You can choose to follow the words of Jesus or you can choose to follow the words of Paul.
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I expect an answer from you as to why the Apostle Peter recommended so highly the ministry of Paul.
Now we have this passage about those saying Lord, Lord but not entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
The kingdom of the heavens to be entered into in this passage refers to the reward of the millennial kingdom. It does not refer to eternity. It refers to the one thousand year manifestation of the kingdom before the eternal age.
In Revelation 20 we have the mention of the "thousand year" reign 6 times:
Rev. 20:2,3,4,5,67
Six times it mentions the kingdom for a thousand years. This is Revelation 20. In the next two chapters (21,22) we have what takes place after the thousand years. That is the new heaven and the new earth and the full New Jerusalem for the eternal age.
Now here is passage of Paul's writings which show Christians may be rewarded or miss a reward. And this is quite apart from the matter of their eternal redemption:
"For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble, the work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.
If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:11-15)
Here one who has been eternally saved through the GIFT of eternal redemtion may be rewarded or lose a reward.
If the work upon the one foundation of Christ stands through the firey examination of Christ, that one will receive a reward. If his work is burnt up in that examination, he will suffer loss. But he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.
This passage shows that the GIFT is retained but the REWARD can be obtained or loss.
The 1,000 year millennial kingdom is a reward that can be loss. And the outer darkness is a realm outside of the sphere of the Lord's glory and light when He comes to the earth.
The immature disciple can lose the reward of the kingdom yet be saved as through fire.
Now here are three other passages from Paul which even more clearly indicate that a Christian may lose the reward of the coming millennial kngdom of Christ and of God:
1.) "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9,10)
Paul cautions the disciples not to be deceived. ThinkOfOne falsly accuses Paul of deceiving.
2.) "For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolator) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them." (Eph. 5:5-7)
Here again Paul is speaking to Christian disciples, warning them not to be deceived. ThinkOfOne falsly accuses Paul of deceiving.
3.) "And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects, envyings, bouts of drunkeness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal. 5:19-21)
Here are three explicit warning from Paul to Christians of things if practiced will cause them to lose the reward of the kingdom of God.
In the last instance Paul says that he told them before and he now tells them again. There is no case against Paul that he gave the Christians license to live loosely on in thier sins.
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Let's take a closer look:
ThinkOfOne,
[b]=====================================
Let's look at the words of Jesus:
John 8:32-36
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of......
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
Notice that Jesus says "everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin". This means that everyone is a slave until they no longer commit sin. How is one freed?
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
One is only freed if one continues in the word of Jesus, i.e., follows His commandments and ultimately follows the will of His Father. When Jesus says "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed", it is a continuation of the same line of thought. But "EVERYONE WHO COMMITS SIN" is a slave.
This is consistent with the following:
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven... Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAnswer the question please. If Paul so perverted the teaching of Christ why did Peter (arguably the leader among the twelve disciples) recommend Paul so highly? (See 2 Peter 3:15,16).
Let's take a closer look:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, l of my Father who is in heaven... Depart from me, you who work iniquity."[/b]
Please address that question before I go further.
Originally posted by jaywillI don't know, but the question is moot. The only thing that matters here is what Jesus taught vs. what Paul taught. Jesus taught that one must be righteous and, in being righteous, act righteously in order to have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Whoever directs one away from this truth is a false prophet.
Answer the question please. If Paul so perverted the teaching of Christ why did Peter (arguably the leader among the twelve disciples) recommend Paul so highly? [b](See 2 Peter 3:15,16).
Please address that question before I go further.[/b]
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne===================================
I don't know, but the question is moot. The only thing that matters here is what Jesus taught vs. what Paul taught. Jesus taught that one must be righteous and, in being righteous, act righteously in order to have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Whoever directs one away from this truth is a false prophet.
I don't know, but the question is moot. The only thing that matters here is what Jesus taught vs. what Paul taught. Jesus taught that one must be righteous and, in being righteous, act righteously in order to have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Whoever directs one away from this truth is a false prophet.
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The question is not moot. I thought you were one of those ones big on evidence. You want to pretend that this evidence is not important.
The evidence is that Peter regarded Paul as an orthodox teacher of Christ's gospel.
You apparently cannot answer the question. I think if you really cared about the orthodox teaching of Jesus you would attempt an answer.
Because you are apathetic about interpreting this important evidence, I doubt that your concern really is for the true teaching of Jesus.
How do I know that this apparent concern is not just a front for opposing the teaching of Christ altogether? How do I know that you are not just dressing up your opposition to Christ's teaching with a phony concern for alledged contradictions between Jesus and Paul ?
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]I am interested in the true teachings of Jesus. The true teachings of Jesus do not hinge on Peter's opinion of Paul. If you were interested in the true teachings of Jesus, you'd know this.
[b]===================================
I don't know, but the question is moot. The only thing that matters here is what Jesus taught vs. what Paul taught. Jesus taught that one must be righteous and, in being righteous, act righteously in order to have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Whoever directs one away from this truth is a false prophet.
st's teaching with a phony concern for alledged contradictions between Jesus and Paul ?
I don't regard a person's opinion of another person to be "important evidence", even if that person knew Jesus. It isn't like Peter had shown himself to be infallible in his time with Jesus. Surely you realize that throughout history people have been wrong about other people for various reasons.
Unless there is more to it than that passage, we don't know what Peter is basing his judgement on, we don't know how good a judge of character Peter was, we don't know what letters Peter saw, if any, etc.
Do I really need to defend advocating following the teachings of Jesus? Do I really need to defend advocating living a life of righteousness?