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@pb1022 saidThey use their own Recovery version. (From the Living Stream Ministry) as it's easier for them to adapt it to the higher truths from Witness Lee.
Can I ask what version of the Holy Bible you are quoting from?
Because John 1:12-13 in the KJV reads this way:
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
and does not say “begotten,” which is fr ...[text shortened]... is post.
I’m just which version of the Bible you are using; apologies if you mentioned it before.
Sonship particularly dislikes the KJV.
@pb1022 saidNo he was not raised as a fleshly body...The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive resurrected in the ((((((spirit.))))))”—1 Peter 3:18; Acts 13:34; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 5:16.
No, Jesus Christ Himself raised three people from the dead, and people were raised from the dead in the Old Testament too.
But Jesus was the first to be Resurrected from the dead (given a new body.)
His own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body. He said that he would give his (((((((“flesh)))))) in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind. (John 6:51; Matthew 20:28)
If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice. This could not have happened because the Bible says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “(((((once))))) for all time.”—Hebrews 9:11, 12.)))))))
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@sonship
Also, I know you’ve stated how Jesus Christ and Christians who have passed will be different but am not sure I understand how you think we’ll be the same.
I think (apologies if I am misremembering) you said we’ll be the same in life and nature but not sure I know what you mean.
That we’ll no longer die? I think every Christian agrees with that.
But surely we are the same in other ways. Can you state what those ways are?
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@galveston75 saidI never said He was Resurrected in a flesh-and-blood body. Why are you addressing that post to me?
No he was not raised as a fleshly body...The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive resurrected in the ((((((spirit.))))))”—1 Peter 3:18; Acts 13:34; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 5:16.
His own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body. He said that he would give his (((((((“flesh)))))) in behalf o ...[text shortened]... says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “(((((once))))) for all time.”—Hebrews 9:11, 12.)))))))
@pb1022 said(given a new body.)
I never said He was Resurrected in a flesh-and-blood body. Why are you addressing that post to me?
Sorry if I misunderstood.
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@galveston75 saidAre you saying Jesus Christ was not Resurrected in bodily form? Leave aside His ascension. During His many Resurrection appearances to His disciples and others, was He in a body?
(given a new body.)
Sorry if I misunderstood.
@sonship saidYou make a few good points, but I'm not convinced.
@josephw
You're reading into the narrative and generating a doctrinal idea that no one in the history of Christianity, the apostles and prophets and church fathers, ever knew or taught.
That is incorrect. Greek Orthodoxy has taught theosis for a long time.
Athanasius, though it is hard to collect a systematized presentation of deification, ...[text shortened]... ten in the Scriptures.
God have mercy on me if I'm wrong.
Agreed. Me too.
Either way, I believe the New Testament scriptures speak much more abundantly about the walk, how to live, think and serve than it does about your alleged theosis. Your references to scripture texts you use as evidence are at best less than necessary to establish the doctrine you appear to be pushing.
Man was created in the image and likeness of God. No doubt much of it is marred by sin. The "second Adam", Jesus, "recovered" what was lost, and until believers are resurrected and removed from the presence of sin and are glorified, we will "grow in grace" and struggle through while we live here.
It is that "struggle" to which I feel the scriptures speak more to than some deep supernatural phenomenon someone thinks they have "recovered" that was hidden from the church for 2000 years.
Let's be practical. What good does it do to spend our time speculating on the nature of our being if it's not doing anyone any good relative to serving others?
That's the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's about laying down ones life in service to others, and not about aggrandizing the self into a god.
@pb1022 saidNope. He was raised with the form a human. But he was not raised with flesh and blood.;
Are you saying Jesus Christ was not Resurrected in bodily form? Leave aside His ascension. During His many Resurrection appearances to His disciples and others, was He in a body?
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Can I ask what version of the Holy Bible you are quoting from?
Usually I use the Recovery Version.
F.F. Bruce a renown Greek NT translator and scholar said this about the RcV.
I have read with interest the copies of translations of New Testament epistles in the Recovery Version. This is a version which I had not previously met. The version seems to me to be an accurate and fairly literal rendering of the Greek. The user of this version will get a precise impression of what the sacred text says.
With all good wishes:
Yours Sincerely,
F.F. Bruce
You may explore this English version here
https://www.recoveryversion.bible/
It is also translated in other languages.
Russian, French, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, they are working on Arabic languages.
The New Testament portion can be sent to you freely as a gift from
https://www.biblesforamerica.org/
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Because John 1:12-13 in the KJV reads this way:
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
and does not say “begotten,” which is frequently stated by you in this post.
This is very minor. Born and Begotten mean the same thing.
Other renderings of verse 13:
Amplified Bible
who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
Literal Standard Version [my bolding]
who were begotten, not of blood, nor of will of flesh, nor of will of man, but of God.
Weymouth New Testament [my bolding]
who were begotten as such not by human descent, nor through an impulse of their own nature, nor through the will of a human father, but from God.
A Faithful Version [my bolding]
Who were not begotten by bloodlines, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the will of God.
Young's Literal Translation [my bolding]
who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten
I’m just which version of the Bible you are using; apologies if you mentioned it before.
The Recovery Version has John 1:12,13 as
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
@sonship saidIt makes a difference. Otherwise why change it.
Because John 1:12-13 in the KJV reads this way:
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
and does not say “begotten,” which is frequently stated by you in this post.
This is very minor. Born and Begotten mean the same thing.
Here they are used together in the same sentence.
One refers to people, and the other to Christ.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.(1 John 5:18 KJV)
Two different things.
Born of God generally refers to righteous born-again Christians... people
Begotten of God refers to Jesus Christ, the ONLY begotten Son of God
Here is another version -
We know that no children of God keep on sinning, for the Son of God keeps them safe, and the Evil One cannot harm them. (1 John 5:18 GNB)
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"We know that everyone who is begotten of God does not sin, but he who has been begotten of God keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him. {1 John 5:18 RcV)
Who is the "he" who is begotten of God? It is the regenerated one, everyone of them "everyone who has been begotten of God".
Footnote 18(2) in RcV read; ( my spacing)
"Some teachers say, based on John 17:15, the he here refers to Christ, who was begotten of God and keeps the regenerated one. But the phrase begotten of God in this clause, a repetition of the phrase in the preceding clause, is the factor that, according to logic, determines that he refers still to the regenerated believer.
A regenerated believer (especially his regenerated spirit, which is born of the Spirit of God - John 3:6) keeps himself from living in sin, and the evil one does not touchee him (especially his regenerated spirit). His divine birth with the divine life in his spirit is the basic factor of such a safeguard . . . "
First John 5:4 says that EVERYTHING that has been begotten of God overcomes the world.
"For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world - our faith." (Recovery Version)
This "everything" refers to every person begotten of God. But especially the expression should refer to that part in man, his human spirit that has been begotten of the Holy Spirit.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
The deepest part of a human beinsgd spiritual being, the human spirit, is enlivened from its comatose state and re-born by the Third Person of the Triune God, the Spirit. The human spirit becomes divine life because of regeneration of it by the Spirit who is God.
" . . . the spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10b)
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (v.16)
We Christians have to learn to discern our spirit, exercise our spirit, and be strengthened into that realm within us that Christ may migrate out more and more into the heart of man, making His sin overcoming home in all of our hearts.
So the Apostle Paul's petition to the Father was that the Christians would be energized and strengthened into thier regenerated spirit.
"That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man. that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith . . . " (Eph. 3:16.17)
The key to overcoming the world and sin is the inner man, the human spirit that is THE "everything that has been begotten of God" (1 John 5:4)
King James Bible
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
New King James Version
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.
Other English renderings of First John 5:4 below.
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These English versions agree with the Recovery Version's translation basically
"For everything that has been begotten of God . . . "
Holman Christian Standard Bible
because whatever has been born of God conquers the world. This is the victory that has conquered the world: our faith.
American Standard Version
For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For whatsoever is born of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory which overcometh the world, our faith.
English Revised Version
For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.
