1. Joined
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    18 Jun '06 00:34
    Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question still applies.)

    And why would He make faith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.
  2. Territories Unknown
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    18 Jun '06 00:35
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question st ...[text shortened]... aith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.
    Don't let him fool ya: Scott believes. He's just angry. Same thing for all the other atheists/agnostics.
  3. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Jun '06 01:36
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Don't let him fool ya: Scott believes. He's just angry. Same thing for all the other atheists/agnostics.
    I'm not angry.
    I'm happy, and ... shiny? and ... full of love!
  4. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Jun '06 01:39
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question st ...[text shortened]... aith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.
    KC you've got it backward.
    People like us aren't deprived of anything, since there's nothing for us to be deprived of.
    And whiulst I applaud your ongoing attempts to rationalise away gods - many have tried before, and I'm sure many more will try - but it can't be done. Rationalising faith just doesn't work.
  5. Joined
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    18 Jun '06 01:44
    Originally posted by amannion
    KC you've got it backward.
    People like us aren't deprived of anything, since there's nothing for us to be deprived of.
    And whiulst I applaud your ongoing attempts to rationalise away gods - many have tried before, and I'm sure many more will try - but it can't be done. Rationalising faith just doesn't work.
    I agree, it just seems to me that faith tends to discriminate.
  6. Joined
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    18 Jun '06 02:48
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question st ...[text shortened]... aith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.
    WHy don't you ask him?
  7. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Jun '06 04:58
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    I agree, it just seems to me that faith tends to discriminate.
    Yeah, but who cares?
    I can't imagine anyone complaining. If you believe in God, it's not an issue. If you don't believe in God, it's not an issue.
  8. Joined
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    18 Jun '06 05:38
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question st ...[text shortened]... aith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.
    How about a rational proof for abiogenesis on how life came from nonlife or a proof showing how the Big Bang came from nothing. I think the proof would look something like this, 0=0.
  9. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    18 Jun '06 05:44
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Don't let him fool ya: Scott believes. He's just angry. Same thing for all the other atheists/agnostics.
    I'm angry, but not at the existance or non-existance of god. I'm just non-specifically angry.
  10. Joined
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    18 Jun '06 06:42
    Originally posted by whodey
    How about a rational proof for abiogenesis on how life came from nonlife or a proof showing how the Big Bang came from nothing. I think the proof would look something like this, 0=0.
    😞😞😞😞😞😞

    Do I have to?

    I don't think I do. If God came down from heaven, most people would conclude that they shouldn't have accepted those pills last night. It's really impossible to logically prove God. We might easily reject an experience of God as a dream. So I'm not talking about a scientific proof but rather a philosophical one. I'm wondering why God didn't make it possible to know, with absolute certainty, that He exists.
  11. Cosmos
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    18 Jun '06 07:13
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question st ...[text shortened]... aith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.
    "Why is there no rational proof for God?"

    Simple answer - because you cannot rationally prove an irrational concept.

    God is omnipotent, but we have free will - contradiction.
    God is omnipotent, onmiscient and benevolent, but evil exists - contradiction.
    What created the universe? - Answer God. What created God? Answer...errr...he has just always been there-nonsense.

    Utter nonsense.
  12. Joined
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    18 Jun '06 08:06
    Originally posted by howardgee
    "Why is there no rational proof for God?"

    Simple answer - because you cannot rationally prove an irrational concept.

    God is omnipotent, but we have free will - contradiction.
    God is omnipotent, onmiscient and benevolent, but evil exists - contradiction.
    What created the universe? - Answer God. What created God? Answer...errr...he has just always been there-nonsense.

    Utter nonsense.
    God is omnipotent, but we have free will - contradiction.
    There is no contradiction. God can, but may not influence our actions. God can be omnipotent and we can have free will.

    God is omnipotent, onmiscient and benevolent, but evil exists - contradiction.

    This is nonsense.

    What created the universe? - Answer God. What created God? Answer...errr...he has just always been there-nonsense.

    The same problem occurs if you reject that God created the universe in the first place, because what then created the universe? Neither the universe or God need to have a creator.

    Utter nonsense.

    I agree.
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
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    18 Jun '06 09:38
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    b]Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question sti ...[text shortened]... aith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.[/b]
    This is a good question. I don't think there can be a rational proof for God in the sense that you mean it. I think there can be a rational argument made for God and against God, but for it to go as far as proof?

    I think there is an onus on Christians to show that it is reasonable to give it a try. God's 'offer' if you like is " seek and you will find" , so there is a responsibility on God to offer enough reason to start that search. However , his offer is not " I will prove this to you for certain and then you will seek me" if we think it's like this then we've got the cart before the horse. From the point where we start seeking then any 'proof' will have to come after , but it wouldn't be in a x+z =g form. The Bible talks about 'knowing God' in the sense of intimacy and personal knowing rather than in the greek sense of logical knowing. Knowing God is more like knowing your wife than knowing that 25+12 = 37. This doesn't mean that it is impossible to make a rational argument for God but it does mean that pure rational reasoning isn't going to take someone all the way. All that any Christian can show is that you don't have to completely throw away your intellect on the journey. Any Christian who says that intellect should play no part in the journey and that it's all about 'faith' is mistaken in my view , but in comparison any Atheist who says it's all about intellect and nothing else is also wrong.

    So scottishnz may say "God , I'm not going to seek for you until I know for certain rationally that you are definitely there" but this is scottishnz's problem . If he chooses to cling rigidly to rationality and refuses to take any risks then that is something he needs to wrestle with. I think to a certain extent God is leaving it open to choice , he wants us to be participants in this process. If we don't want to know then that's fine and he's provided a whole world for us to get busy in and distract ourselves so that we can live in ignorance of him if we like. If we do want to know he will get to work in our lives , but don't expect him to present some theory in front of you , he's more likely to try and get intimate with you (not to be misconstrued!)

    So as far as discrimination is concerned God's primary way of revealing himself is by his presence and his Spirit. This is the common denominator of humanity . We don't all have Scottishnz's empirical abilities , but we do all have a spirit and are capable of intimacy. Scottichnz may chose to put all his eggs in the empirical reasoning basket but there are plenty more baskets and eggs out there. Even if God did prove himself rationally somehow it would still only be some dry intellectual thing on a bit of paper rather than a living breathing God.If he had this 'proof' Scottishnz might still be a long way from really knowing God in the way God intended. It's quite possible to 'know' something logically but not really know anything. I might know that my wife exists but if I don't KNOW her intimately what do I really know of any value?

    So the answer if you like is to loosen up a bit a realise that there is more to life than just intellect and rationality. Mystery is Ok you know , it's not to be feared. God has never said he can be understood through intellect alone and when you look at the universe it seems quite likely that the ultimate answers are going to be beyond our rationality anyway. Scottishnz doesn't need to discard his intellect just put it in the proper context.
  14. London
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    18 Jun '06 12:53
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Why is there no rational proof for God?
    Surely God, a being who is omnipotent - over logic as well - would make it easier for people to be certain of His existence. Why is that people like scottishinnz are deprived of knowing God just because they were endowed with an empirical intellect? (I could point to many atheists on this site, where the question st ...[text shortened]... aith so abstract and implausible thatit is almost impossible for scottishinnz to believe in it.
    What do you mean by "rational proof"?
  15. Felicific Forest
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    18 Jun '06 13:08
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    😞😞😞😞😞😞

    Do I have to?

    I don't think I do. If God came down from heaven, most people would conclude that they shouldn't have accepted those pills last night. It's really impossible to logically prove God. We might easily reject an experience of God as a dream. So I'm not talking about a scientific proof but rather a philosophical one. I'm wondering why God didn't make it possible to know, with absolute certainty, that He exists.
    Conrau K: "If God came down from heaven, ... "

    ..... but God has come down from heaven and incarnated into a human being called Jesus Christ, Emmanuel (=God With Us).
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