Reality

Is my reality different than your reality ? Meaning we all have different levels of consciousness we live in so it seems we all experience things differently. We understand things differently.. Could this be the reason for the constant debate over spiritual issues. I can't understand the Christian view for the life of me. They can't understand why I don't see it their way. Blockade of concsiousness ?

I also often wondered why theists cannot understand the view point of atheists and visa versa.

In fact, I often wonder what determines whether a person is a theist or an atheist. I cannot imagine myself being a theists in any world where critical and independent thought was allowed. I also cannot imagine myself being a theists even in any world where no independent thought was allowed and every attempt was made to brainwash me to blindly believe in a religion from a very young age but, of course, just because I cannot imagine it does not mean it couldn't happen so maybe I would become a theist in such a world.

But somehow I get the impression that my atheism is mainly innate and, if that is true, then I am guessing it is probably true that all theism and atheism is somehow innate (perhaps even in the genes!? ). But I don't see what 'different levels of consciousness' would have to do with it; I get the impression that theists actually think differently from atheists and one specific way they do this (there are probably several ways) is by tending to allow their desires of what they would like to be true effect their belief-forming process so that they 'choose' their beliefs (so that their beliefs are exactly what they want to be true) while atheists generally do not 'choose' what they believe.

Originally posted by buckky
Is my reality different than your reality ? Meaning we all have different levels of consciousness we live in so it seems we all experience things differently. We understand things differently.. Could this be the reason for the constant debate over spiritual issues. I can't understand the Christian view for the life of me. They can't understand why I don't see it their way. Blockade of concsiousness ?

I would more or less agree with those sentiments.

I can see both sides of the arguement (theist vs athiest)

"Blockade of conciousness" is an interesting term. I like it. Did you come up with that one?

Originally posted by buckky
Is my reality different than your reality ? Meaning we all have different levels of consciousness we live in so it seems we all experience things differently. We understand things differently.. Could this be the reason for the constant debate over spiritual issues. I can't understand the Christian view for the life of me. They can't understand why I don't see it their way. Blockade of concsiousness ?

When asked about reality, I often think of this exerpt from Carlos Castaneda

http://www.american-buddha.com/interv.2nd.carlos.htm

I think it's significant how Carlos is bending over backwards to present a system of non-ordinary reality, non-linear reality in a conceptual framework so that it can be accepted by his peers at the University of California by the American public. It's almost as if Carlos had wasn't taking any chances that the psychedelic generation was really going to be there and ready to read the book, the psychedelic generation could get the message, be a large enough part of the readership to to pass the word. He's talking about people, he talks about non-people there's some really some really remarkable instances there where I remember the one where don Juan walks or Carlos walks off into the chaparral and he comes back and there are these three beings there who turn out later according to don Juan not to be even beings. Apparently, they don't have these fibers coming or they don't look like eggs. Do you have any insights into what these are, that aren't really people, from having listened to that? I'm not too much into that, that was part of so-called phantoms that Carlos was describing, but it wasn't very clear to me where they fit into the whole picture, except these were people you know, phantoms were entices that you had to look for, and be careful about. It seems also like only a sorcerer and a man-of- knowledge can tell who they are, because to Carlos it looked very much like real people, and Genero and Juan can recognize them and unless we're into that other kind of knowledge, I can't claim to be able to recognize them. Carlos talks about his experience with the datura plant, or the jimson weed, the devil weed in the first book and the second book which is dealing very heavily the need for the psychotropic plants. He drank the root extract and rubbed himself with the paste, and what followed was an extraordinary experience. Afterwards Don Juan discusses with him the lessons he learned. Carlos says there was a question I wanted to ask him. I knew he was going to evade it, so I waited for him to mention the subject; I waited all day. Finally, before I left that evening, I had to ask him, "Did I really fly, don Juan?" "That is what you told me. Didn't you?" "I know, don Juan. I mean, did my body fly? Did I take off like a bird?" "You always ask me questions I cannot answer. You flew. That is what the second portion of the devil's weed is for. As you take more of it, you will learn how to fly perfectly. It is not a simple matter. A man flys with the help of the second portion of the devil's weed. That is all I can tell you. What you want to know makes no sense. Birds fly like birds and a man who has taken the devil's weed flies as such ." "As birds do?" "No, he flies as a man who has taken the weed." "Then I didn't really fly, don Juan. I flew in my imagination, in my mind alone. Where was my body?" "In the bushes," he replied cuttingly, but immediately broke into laughter again. "The trouble with you is that you understand things in only one way. You don't think a man flies; and yet a brujo can move a thousand miles in one second to see what is going on. He can deliver a blow to his enemies long distances away. So, does he or doesn't he fly?" "You see, don Juan, you and I are differently oriented. Suppose, for the sake of argument, one of my fellow students had been here with me when I took the devil's weed. Would he have been able to see me flying?" "There you go again with your questions about what would happen if . . . It is useless to talk that way. If your friend, or anybody else, takes the second portion of the weed all he can do is fly. Now, if he had simply watched you, he might have seen you flying, or he might not. That depends on the man." "But what I mean, don Juan, is that if you and I look at a bird and see it fly, we agree that it is flying. But if two of my friends had seen me flying as I did last night, would they have agreed that I was flying?" "Well, they might have. You agree that birds fly because you have seen them flying. Flying is a common thing with birds. But you will not agree on other things birds do, because you have never seen birds doing them. If your friends knew about men flying with the devil's weed, then they would agree." "Let's put it another way, don Juan. What I meant to say is that if I had tied myself to a rock with a heavy chain I would have flown just the same, because my body had nothing to do with my flying." "If you tie yourself to a rock," he said, "I'm afraid you will have to fly holding the rock with its heavy chain."

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
When asked about reality, I often think of this exerpt from Carlos Castaneda

http://www.american-buddha.com/interv.2nd.carlos.htm

I think it's significant how Carlos is bending over backwards to present a system of non-ordinary reality, non-linear reality in a conceptual framework so that it can be accepted by his peers at the University of ...[text shortened]... the rock with its heavy chain."

I love Castanada. Pure fiction but great interesting stuff that made you think in different way.

Originally posted by buckky
Is my reality different than your reality ? Meaning we all have different levels of consciousness we live in so it seems we all experience things differently. We understand things differently.. Could this be the reason for the constant debate over spiritual issues. I can't understand the Christian view for the life of me. They can't understand why I don't see it their way. Blockade of concsiousness ?

Reality does not change due to opinion or consciousness, we may view things a
little differently, but our opinions don't change the reality we are in, it may give
us insight we didn't have before, but that again is our grasp of reality not reality
changing.
Kelly

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
I also often wondered why theists cannot understand the view point of atheists and visa versa.

In fact, I often wonder what determines whether a person is a theist or an atheist. I cannot imagine myself being a theists in any world where critical and independent thought was allowed. I also cannot imagine myself being a theists even in any world wh y what they want to be true) while atheists generally do not 'choose' what they believe.

Some comments from a Christian on your thoughts:

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In fact, I often wonder what determines whether a person is a theist or an atheist.
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I am a child of the 60s. I don't think I was ever a real atheist. I recall adopting a kind of Oversoul or Deistic concept. I recall saying "Hey, I'M god".

I don't recall being one saying that there is no God period. I had long stretches of time where I didn't care about any diety. To talk about "searching for God" to me would be like a mouse searching for a cat. It wasn't going to happen !

I am being honest and exploring where we had or have some common ground.

But to be honest, if I ever was an atheist, I would be ashamed to admit it. That is because I think it now to be so bad of a philosophy. But now I am biased I guess.

I would feel ashamed of admitting such a bad thought process now as I would feel ashamed to having, say, smoked hashesh or pot.

Its nothing to boast in, IMO.

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I cannot imagine myself being a theists in any world where critical and independent thought was allowed.
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I think the MAIN reason I believe in God now is because of Jesus Christ. At least God was not REAL to me until the day I called upon the name of Jesus.

Absolutely, in my case, God became more than just an academic or philosophical musing to me, the night I called upon the name of Jesus.

Sure, before that time, I did a lot of argueing about G-O-D. But I was in control all the way. It was through the name of Jesus that God became a available Person to me in my enjoyment and experience.

Jesus is the event horizon near God the Father. Don't get too close. You might get pulled in.

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I also cannot imagine myself being a theists even in any world where no independent thought was allowed and every attempt was made to brainwash me to blindly believe in a religion from a very young age
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Hold it right there. The night God became a reality to me had nothing to do with young earth or old earth opinions.

There is no reason to make an absolute link between Young Earth Creationism and the experience of God.

Maybe YEC is wrong about the age of the universe.

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but, of course, just because I cannot imagine it does not mean it couldn't happen so maybe I would become a theist in such a world.
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I met God because of God's M-E-R-C-Y. I know some old Christian lady was praying for me. I know at least ONE person who was deligently praying for me.

The first time I talked with a Christian who said they were first an Atheist, I was very surprised. I thought you were only suppose to travel the other direction.

But there was one man who told me that he was an Atheist first and then he became a Christian. I believe that he was telling me the truth.

I spoke a few years ago to another Christian who claimed that he was previously to this a strong Atheist who left the Catholic Church.

This man said something very interesting. I asked him for advice like this. "What advice would you give me now as to how to win an Atheist over to Christ?" What he said surprised me. Here's what he said:

"First of all, to argue with an Atheist, like you have a better argument then he does, is the exact WORST thing you can do."

I never forgot that. Though I have not obeyed he's advice at all. He said that to come at an Atheist like you have a better reason to believe in God then he has to not believe, according to him, was the exact WORST thing to do.

So I went on. "So then what do you do ?"

And to that he said "I just let them watch me." And I assumed by that that he was talking about people in his neighberhood or at his place of work.

"I just let them watch me. "

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But somehow I get the impression that my atheism is mainly innate and, if that is true, then I am guessing it is probably true that all theism and atheism is somehow innate (perhaps even in the genes!? ).
====================================

All I can say here is that it is very tempting to assume that what one has personally experienced must be the experience of everyone else.

Sometimes, I think, one has to be careful about that assumption. I have seen some militant atheists be very bold.

"You KNOW God is not real. You KNOW that. You KNOW there is no God!!"

The strong assumption here is, because that is his feeling that there honestly is no God to be experienced for him, that has to be the same experience for everyone. And if they are not admitting it, then they must be being dishonest.

As a one for whom God became real, I may make a similar statement. But, I am admitedly biased.

I think there are two kinds of agnostics.

Type 1 says "There may be a God but I don't know that there is a God."

Type 2 says "There may be a God. I don't know that and neither does anyone else."

My opinion is that a Type 1 agnostic is a better and more realistic position.

Atheists, IMO, are revizing their definition these days. I think some of them have found that theists can rationalize as handidly as they can sometimes. So they revize their definition of Atheism to try to shift the burden of proof as much on the theist as possible.

So you get this now days - "Um, you don't understand atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in any gods."


This more benigh, passive definition is designed to avoid making a positive truth claim - "God does no exist, period". It is more of a passive hunkering down into a position of simply "lacking" something that other people seem for some unexplanable reason to claim.

Then there are some real clever Atheists who put it this way.

"We are all atheists, don't you know? You don't believe in Thor or Odin or Zues as a Christian. So I just don't believe in one more god then you do."

I like this one. Its cool. My reply sometimes is like this:

"Do you think a amoeba is a higher life form then a virus? Do you think a fish is higher life form then a amoeba? Do you think a amphibian is a higher life form then a fish or a reptile higher then an amphibian or a mammal a higher life form then a reptile? Do you think of a human being as a higher life then an ape ? (Give or take particulars). They usually get the drift.

Then I tell them I just believe in one more "higher life" then they do.

I look at the creation around me from the tiniest quantum structure to as far as thej Hubble ultra deep field telescope can see, and all the technicalities within and inbetween. And I honestly believe in one more higher life then mankind.

Particularly, I look to Jesus Christ of the New Testament and of history. And I believe in a manifestation of a higher life. He acted that way.


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But I don't see what 'different levels of consciousness' would have to do with it;
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Interesting. Say now you lend me a good book. I don't return it after 5 months. Let's say that eventually the book somehow just kind of becomes mine. It ends up permantly on my bookshelf. I consider it "my book" now.

Well, on one hand I could simply be unconscious. Then one day I am reading the Bible. And somehow, the Holy Spirit convicts me that I have actually made your book which I borrowed become my book without your permission. Actually, to get down to it I stole your book.

Now here are TWO levels of consciousness. One level, my conscious is not bothered. I am unaware of any wrong doing. I reason "Well, I need it more then he does."

Then there is another level of conscousness, awakened in this instance, by the Holy Spirit speaking to my conscience. I suddenly realize that I possess something which is someone else's property. To make things right, I should return it. perhaps with an apology.

"Sorry Andrew. I still have your book which you leant me. Here's your book."

Now this is a simple example Andrew. But it illustrates different levels of consciousness. I don't mean consciousness of mystical vibrations or karma as such. I mean a moral consciousness. I have done wrong. I need to fix it.

Now suppose, you're a married man. You invite me to dinner. While you're out of the room I flirt with your wife and flatter her. In essence I tempt your wife.

Perhaps I think I am pretty cool and have no sense of wrong doing. Then I pick up a Bible one day. And I read these words. The words of Jesus Christ -

"But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile a man.

For out of the heart come evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies.

These are things which defile the man ..." (See Matt. 15:18-20)

With a Bible sensitized conscience a man comes into a higher consciousness. Not on a mystical levels necessarily does he get enlightened. But the words of the teaching of Christ turns up the awareness within. Out of my heart proceed some evil reasonings. I can reason myself into adultery. I can reason myself into fornication. I can reason myself with "evil reasoning" into may sins.

These sins coming out of my heart through evil reasonings defile me. They often come out of my mouth. They can defile me. Put a stain on my character and damage others. They can harm others. They can spread my kind of low morality onto others like germs.

( I technically lost the rest of this post )

Originally posted by jaywill
Some comments from a Christian on your thoughts:

[b]=============================================
In fact, I often wonder what determines whether a person is a theist or an atheist.
=============================================

I am a child of the 60s. I don't think I was ever a real atheist. I recall adopting a kind of Oversoul or Deistic s the event horizon near God the Father. Don't get too close. You might get pulled in.[/b]

"Do you think a amoeba is a higher life form then a virus? Do you think a fish is higher life form then a amoeba? Do you think a amphibian is a higher life form then a fish or a reptile higher then an amphibian or a mammal a higher life form then a reptile? Do you think of a human being as a higher life then an ape ? (Give or take particulars). They usually get the drift.

Then I tell them I just believe in one more "higher life" then they do.
Category error. Your punchline 'life form' fails to satisfy the criteria that all the other lifeforms had to satisfy - those being physical, mortal, and constrained by natural laws. Also fails to be observable or testable, and in your case, feasible.

Originally posted by buckky
Is my reality different than your reality ? Meaning we all have different levels of consciousness we live in so it seems we all experience things differently. We understand things differently.. Could this be the reason for the constant debate over spiritual issues. I can't understand the Christian view for the life of me. They can't understand why I don't see it their way. Blockade of concsiousness ?

If reality isn't real, then our perceptions are false.

If our perceptions are false, then there's no hope.

If there is one true reality, then there is one true perception.

Reality is hope.

Christ is our hope.