Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAll your questions about atheism betray the fact that you think it is a religion - despite all the responses to your questions clearly saying it is not. Yet you persist in asking questions as if you still think it is a religion. I don't see how this has anything to do with 'stylistic differences of expression'. I think it is simply that you don't read what is written, or choose to ignore what you read.
Please allow for stylistic differences of expression in others; I'm as serious here as if participating in invasive brain surgery without anesthesia. Thanks for reading and replying to my stuff. I'll make it a point to pay closer attention to yours. -Bob
25 Nov 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadWe all employ the Socratic Method in our own ways; besides, all type on the screen doesn't necessarily merit reply.
All your questions about atheism betray the fact that you think it is a religion - despite all the responses to your questions clearly saying it is not. Yet you persist in asking questions as if you still think it is a religion. I don't see how this has anything to do with 'stylistic differences of expression'. I think it is simply that you don't read what is written, or choose to ignore what you read.
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25 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyFirst, if you are trying to use the Socratic Method you are doing it wrong.
We all employ the Socratic Method in our own ways; besides, all type on the screen doesn't necessarily merit reply.
Second, using the Socratic Method requires that the parties you are trying to
'teach' are amenable to being taught...
We are [I am] not amenable to being taught by you.
If you want to have a conversation then fine, but you are not the teacher
and we are not your pupils.
So stop acting like it.
Listen to what others say and when they ask questions answer them, don't
just sit there asking more questions.
Particularly when those questions betray the fact that you have paid absolutely
no attention whatsoever to the answers you have been given.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI'm surprised; 'not believing' sounds much too easy, so easy that anyone could do it. Are you sure that's all?
"1) You have to not believe in the existence of gods. Nothing more to it."
> I'm surprised; 'not believing' sounds much too easy, so easy that anyone could do it. Are you sure that's all?
"2) There is no founder - although I'm sure there is someone who coined the term atheism for the first time. There is also no leader. Does that bother you? Do y ...[text shortened]... ng Rat, I'm beginning to understand the outline of Atheism. May I ask additional questions? -Bob
followed by With Atheism, I'm ignorant; at the moment, I need your leadership. Otherwise, I've led.
You're contradicting yourself. And even then: what does it matter if it's "easy"? Must the "truth" necessarily be complicated and not understandable for humans? Must it be clouded in mystery? Do you fear partially stepping out of the fog? If it's clouded in mystery you can safely claim that you haven't got the answers and need to be told what to do.
If you say it's true, I believe you. At Northeastern University in Boston I needed guidance from my professors. With Colgate Palmolive and AT&T's Advanced Information Systems Group ... In the spiritual realm, for decades I've accepted the authority and leadership of my pastor/teacher. With Atheism, I'm ignorant; at the moment, I need your leadership. Otherwise, I've led.
I'd say the fact that you need help in the spiritually realm is two-folded:
1) As you keep proving and as Twhitehead has said before; you're incredibly needy. You desperately need someone to hold your hand, to tell you what to do and to think. You seem terrified of stepping out of bounds, for making mistakes, for falling down and getting back up. If you were a child (or, in some cases, a grownup 🙂 ) I'd think you'd be the type of child who would never take a bunch of LEGO blocks and build something out of scratch but instead you'd always want to build using the instructions.
2) The concept of god, heaven and hell is indeed often so ridiculous and littered with contradictions that anyone would need some external guidance. It's the reason why religious people seek each other out (confirmation of far-fetched ideas) and ridicule other religions (makes yourself seemingly less ridiculous)
So, Atheism defines an anonymous category of human beings who don't believe anything or make anything happen?
No and no.
Try again, please.
Thanks to you, Great King Rat, I'm beginning to understand the outline of Atheism.
Lessons have to be concluded with a test to see if the student has indeed learned and understood the subject matter. It is not enough for the student to simply say "I get it now" and walk away.
So, please, for me and fellow atheists: please, write a paragraph on what you think is the outline of atheism. No copy-and-paste, your own words, please.
I will type more later. Have to work now.
Ps. I agree with googlefudge: you shouldn't write atheism with a capital A. You presumably do this because you want to equate atheism with religions, which shows that you don't understand atheism yet. Please, start by writing atheism instead of Atheism.
Originally posted by Great King Rat"... please, write a paragraph on what you think is the outline of atheism." -Great King Rat
[b]I'm surprised; 'not believing' sounds much too easy, so easy that anyone could do it. Are you sure that's all?
followed by With Atheism, I'm ignorant; at the moment, I need your leadership. Otherwise, I've led.
You're contradicting yourself. And even then: what does it matter if it's "easy"? Must the "truth" necessarily be complicat ...[text shortened]... hows that you don't understand atheism yet. Please, start by writing atheism instead of Atheism.[/b]
From your comments and my observation of the comments of other self avowed atheists: a) It appears that an atheist views human life on earth through the prism of an inverted pyramid (no vertical apex signifying an omniscient and omnipotent supreme being, rather an apex focused on themselves and their own rational capacity); b) Exclusive emphasis is on human reason and sensory perceptions; c) Rationales for atheism appear to include 'there's insufficient evidence' and 'it's illogical to believe in god' (or God); d) Man is regarded as material without a soul; e) Spirituality is a myth; f) There's temporal life only and physical death is its termination; g) Morals are subjectively determined while ethics are relativistic based on changing situations; h) Some atheists are passive in their rejection of faith as a means of perception; a few assume militant postures and become spokespersons for the claims and merits of atheism, debating strenuously from the constructs of the law that they've become unto themselves (with no absolute source of authority to reference, except the academic disciplines of science and philosophy which become their safe haven and refuge); i) In summary, atheism is about 'no', no theos or god.
Questions: 1) Am I wrong? 2) If wrong, in what respects? 3) What is the ultimate goal of your life on earth as an atheist?
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29 Nov 13
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"... please, write a paragraph on what you think is the outline of atheism." -Great King Rat
From your comments and my observation of the comments of other self avowed atheists: a) It appears that an atheist views human life on earth through the prism of an inverted pyramid (no vertical apex signifying an omniscient and omnipotent supreme being, rath ...[text shortened]... 2) If wrong, in what respects? 3) What is the ultimate goal of your life on earth as an atheist?
a) It appears that an atheist views human life on earth through the prism of an inverted pyramid
(no vertical apex signifying an omniscient and omnipotent supreme being, rather an apex focused on
themselves and their own rational capacity)
Ok, first, and this is going to be a running theme...
Atheists are not a homogeneous group. The ONLY thing that all atheists have in common (apart from all
the things common to all humans) is that they don't have a belief in the existence of gods (and gods plural
not just singular god... but I'll get to that) and they can, and often do, disagree about everything else.
While it's not common to view them that way, a Buddhist who doesn't believe in a god or gods would be an
atheist.
Second, and again this is going to be a running theme, atheists lack a belief in gods, any and all gods.
Atheists don't simply not believe in the monotheistic Christian god, they lack a belief in any and all gods.
Thirdly, Most atheists (and for the above reasons I can't say all) do not view the world through their atheism.
I for one do not go around thinking about how I as an atheist deal with or view anything.
The reason is that atheism is generally a result of peoples world view and not the source of it.
A conclusion rather than a starting point.
A theist often views the world through the lens of their religion, and that religion IS the starting point for
how they form other beliefs.
This is seldom the case with atheists.
A Buddhist would view the world through their Buddhism, a Rationalist and/or Skeptic will view the world through
their Skepticism, a Humanist through the lens of humanism (and some of these are not mutually exclusive).
So overall this point is wrong, because it views atheists as being a unified group about whom such generalisations
can be made, and because few if any atheists view the world through their atheism.
b) Exclusive emphasis is on human reason and sensory perceptions;
Again, assuming all atheists can be generalised about in this way.
Also, doesn't match up with how I, or I suspect many, atheists view the world.
c) Rationales for atheism appear to include 'there's insufficient evidence' and 'it's illogical to
believe in god' (or God);
Again, that should be, "it's illogical to believe in gods" plural.
Not sure that I need a rational to be an atheist, atheism being the default position.
I need a rational to become a theist, rather than the other way around.
But when reasons are asked for, those are two of them. (and they are related)
I would probably rephrase the second as 'it's irrational' to believe rather than 'it's illogical'.
d) Man is regarded as material without a soul;
Often true, but again not all atheists are the same. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods and you can believe
in a soul, or an equivalent, without belief in a god or gods.
And this is not a part of atheism, atheism simply requires a lack of belief in gods, anything else is part of a broader
philosophy or world view.
e) Spirituality is a myth;
Again, not a part of atheism, and not always true either.
Many atheists can and do believe in spirituality of some kind (dependent on how you define spirituality).
Atheistic Buddhists for example would not agree that they don't have a spiritual side.
f) There's temporal life only and physical death is its termination;
I think you mean temporary not temporal... Temporal in context simply means a life 'in time', and not a life
of short and finite duration.
Again, not always true, there are those who believe in an afterlife and not gods.
g) Morals are subjectively determined while ethics are relativistic based on changing
situations;
Wrong. And again not a part of atheism.
An atheists moral system will be defined by the school of morality (if any) they subscribe to and not their
atheism. And there are as many different views within atheism as schools of morality... if not more.
h) Some atheists are passive in their rejection of faith as a means of perception; a few
assume militant postures and become spokespersons for the claims and merits of atheism,
debating strenuously from the constructs of the law that they've become unto themselves
(with no absolute source of authority to reference, except the academic disciplines of science
and philosophy which become their safe haven and refuge);
Man are we getting pejorative with this one... Can you at least try to understand atheism without
inserting your preconceived baggage onto it?
Yes there are many (by far, most) atheists who give little if any thought to the fact that they
are atheists, and who don't do anything activist to do with atheism.
There are also some (a small minority) who are activist... this is probably true of most groups.
And yes, there is no ultimate authority in atheism, no supreme beings laying down the law.
This is a good thing.
i) In summary, atheism is about 'no', no theos or god.
Wrong. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods.
Questions: 1) Am I wrong? 2) If wrong, in what respects? 3) What is the ultimate goal
of your life on earth as an atheist?
1) Yes, but not completely wrong.
2) Outlined above.
3) Again, no such thing as a standard atheist, so you can only ever ask individuals what their goals are.
There is no standard answer. Which again is not a bad thing.
You also presume that such a thing as an ultimate goal need, or does, exist.
Been busy at work, and thus took about 4 hours to write this, so probably going to be repeating what
others have said.
EDIT: And no thumbs ups for the "Stop-it and Tidy-up" video... you people have no taste :p
29 Nov 13
Originally posted by googlefudgeThanks, googlefudge; quite helpful. What are the short and longer term benefits of being an atheist?a) It appears that an atheist views human life on earth through the prism of an inverted pyramid
(no vertical apex signifying an omniscient and omnipotent supreme being, rather an apex focused on
themselves and their own rational capacity)
Ok, first, and this is going to be a running theme...
Atheists are not a homogeneous group. ...[text shortened]... and Tidy-up" video... you people have no taste :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeahRq7hxf4
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29 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou are still not getting it.
Thanks, googlefudge; quite helpful. What are the short and longer term benefits of being an atheist?
I lack a belief in gods not because I think it will benefit me, although it does.
I lack a belief in gods because I don't think they exist and don't think it's a good
idea to believe in the existence of things that don't exist.
What people believe about reality influences their decisions.
I believe that a person should therefore endeavour to believe as many true things
and as few false things about reality as possible.
So that when they make decisions their beliefs are as accurate as possible so that the
decisions they make are more likely to be the right ones.
That's the benefit of atheism, You don't believe in gods that don't exist, with everything
that comes with that.
29 Nov 13
1 edit
EDIT: And no thumbs ups for the "Stop-it and Tidy-up" video... you people have no taste :p
I watched it briefly earlier and meant to watch it completely but then forgot. Will watch it tonight. From what I saw though, it looked like a 1960s cartoon induced and inspired by vast amounts of LSD and other drugs. Would that be correct?
Anyway, it's funny looking back at those 1960s cartoons and knowing that a lot of them were probably made for kids by grownups who were probably high as a kite. Or at least that's what I like to think 😉
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29 Nov 13
Originally posted by Great King RatHey I watched them as a kid...
[b]EDIT: And no thumbs ups for the "Stop-it and Tidy-up" video... you people have no taste :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeahRq7hxf4
I watched it briefly earlier and meant to watch it completely but then forgot. Will watch it tonight. From what I saw though, it looked like a 1960s cartoon induced and inspired by vast amounts of LSD and ...[text shortened]... or kids by grownups who were probably high as a kite. Or at least that's what I like to think 😉[/b]
They're late 80's ... LSD inspired cartoons thank you very much 😉