Religion in Schools

Originally posted by Teinosuke
Children should not be taught the doctrines of any one particular religion in school because no one particular religion has been conclusively proved true. Thus, there's no consensus about "what is out there". On the other hand, there's a fairly universal consensus that murder, rape, theft, are wrong.

The evidence of Western Europe is that the most secul ...[text shortened]... crime rates, so yes, I think it is possible to teach and inculcate a non-religious morality.

Christ gave us the Golden Rule to live by which is to do unto others as you would have them do to you. So do you think this worthy of consideration or does this cross the imaginary line between church and state?

Originally posted by whodey
Christ gave us the Golden Rule to live by which is to do unto others as you would have them do to you. So do you think this worthy of consideration or does this cross the imaginary line between church and state?

The golden rule stinks. It's only applicable in certain situations. In this one, Jesus was wrong.

"live by which is to do unto others as you would have them do to you"
Never in my life I would like to operate a surgeon if I wanted him to operate me. He agrees with me on this point.

Originally posted by whodey
Christ gave us the Golden Rule to live by which is to do unto others as you would have them do to you. So do you think this worthy of consideration or does this cross the imaginary line between church and state?

And its called "the Golden Rule" not "Christs Rule" because all he did was restate what everybody knows. Pretending that it is unique to Christianity is foolish.
I for one have no objections to teaching morality in schools. I do not believe morality is significantly different between cultures or religions.\
I do object to attempts to indoctrinate children with religions.
I must note that I went to a Catholic run Secondary school, and was not indoctrinated and never really felt a lot of pressure to be Christian. I did have to do "Religious Education" as do almost all students in Zambia regardless of what school they go to.
The syllabus is set by the Council of Churches whose members includes most of the large Churches in Zambia.
I remember having to memorize a few Bible passages, and being told that animals cant think (obviously whoever set the syllabus never had a pet).

My son goes to a School whose children come from various religions. I would estimate about a quarter Muslim a quarter Christian, some Hindus and the rest probably don't really take religion seriously. There is also a wide range of ethnicities.
For school functions, they usually have a Christian prayer and a Muslim prayer (if one can call it that).

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Could you give concrete statistics for that?

In my experience, Muslim countries have among the lowest crime rates in the world.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

Regarding homicide rates, Oablo Fajnzylber et al., in a study reported in the Journal of Law and Economics (2002), looked at thirty-eight non-African nations and found that the ten with the highest homicide rates were highly religious, with minimal or statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism. Conversely, of the ten nations with the lowest homicide rates, all but Ireland were secular nations with high levels of atheism. James Fox and Jack Levin, in The Will to Kill, looked at thirty-seven non-African nations and found that, of the ten nations with the highest homicide rates, all but Estonia and Taiwan were highly religious, with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism. Conversely, of the ten nations with the lowest homicide rates, all but Ireland and Kuwait were relatively secular nations, with high levels of organic atheism.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Has anything been conclusively proven true?

Yes. Plenty of mathematical theorems.

OK. I'll rephrase what I said. Schools should teach only those aspects of morality about which there is a near-universal consensus.

Originally posted by whodey
Christ gave us the Golden Rule to live by which is to do unto others as you would have them do to you. So do you think this worthy of consideration or does this cross the imaginary line between church and state?

We've had this debate before on another thread. I think the Golden Rule should be replaced by "Do unto others as they wish to be done by" (obviously, within reason).

Originally posted by Teinosuke
We've had this debate before on another thread. I think the Golden Rule should be replaced by "Do unto others as they wish to be done by" (obviously, within reason).

But what if some parents object? Who made you the "god" of morals?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
The golden rule stinks. It's only applicable in certain situations. In this one, Jesus was wrong.

"live by which is to do unto others as you would have them do to you"
Never in my life I would like to operate a surgeon if I wanted him to operate me. He agrees with me on this point.

So what morals would you teach?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Fill ya boots whodey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

You do realize that some religious parents are just as offended by secular humanism as are those like yourself who go out of their minds at the mention of God. Of course, those who are faith must simply "deal with it" I suppose.

Originally posted by whodey
But what if some parents object? Who made you the "god" of morals?

That's all right - teach the traditional Golden Rule and alternative formulations as alternatives. Teach the basic moral precepts that religious and secular people alike agree on (ie, don't murder, don't steal, don't rape) as moral rules, and then discuss controversial issues (abortion, euthanasia, etc) as controversies. Thus there's no indoctrination either of secular or religious values.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I think what you overlooked however is the fact that religious education can be intellectually stimulating and robust. In Australia, there are a number of religious subjects offered for final year (grade 12). I remember doing a subject on Scripture, looking at the gospel of Luke in a critical way. The subject also accommodated for Jewish students, who looke ...[text shortened]... fer academically rigorous subjects about religion and can see that as valuable in the long term.

It would be more helpful and productive, from the point of view of social cohesion, if Christians were to look at set passages from the Quran and Muslims were to look at the Gospel of Luke - or if everyone was to look at both.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
It would be more helpful and productive, from the point of view of social cohesion, if Christians were to look at set passages from the Quran and Muslims were to look at the Gospel of Luke - or if everyone was to look at both.

Well, for practical reasons, that's just not feasible. Anyway, comparative religious studies is quite common, at least in Australia.

Originally posted by whodey
You do realize that some religious parents are just as offended by secular humanism as are those like yourself who go out of their minds at the mention of God. Of course, those who are faith must simply "deal with it" I suppose.

You need to stop using the word "secular" as a synonym for "atheist" or "agnostic". Secularism is supposed to be the sensible middle ground on which people of all faiths and none can meet. For instance, a secular school would not teach Jewish or Muslim students that it is wrong to eat pork, but nor would it compel or encourage them to eat pork. Secular schools are not like the Spanish Inquisition!

Originally posted by Teinosuke
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

Regarding homicide rates, Oablo Fajnzylber et al., in a study reported in the Journal of Law and Economics (2002), looked at thirty-eight non-African nations and found that the ten with the highest homicide rates were highly religious, with minimal or statistically insignifica ...[text shortened]... all but Ireland and Kuwait were relatively secular nations, with high levels of organic atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

Sorting by most recent statistics, the top 10 are: Liechtenstein, Iceland, Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, Brunei, Morocco, Lebanon, Oman and Algeria.

Five of the ten are Muslim. Two are Christian with strong levels of religious practice. Two have assorted Asian religions with similarly strong levels of religious practice. The only country with widespread atheism on the list is Japan (which does have the world's highest suicide rate, though).

So, sorry - I cannot agree with Oablo Fajnzylber et. al. The facts are all on the web - you can see for yourself.

Originally posted by whodey
You do realize that some religious parents are just as offended by secular humanism as are those like yourself who go out of their minds at the mention of God. Of course, those who are faith must simply "deal with it" I suppose.

Go out of my mind!!!!, what on earth are you talking about? That's a little bit 'tabloid' don't you think?

Those of faith can send their child(ren) to a faith school if they so choose.