Religion in Schools

Originally posted by Teinosuke
Seems like this is more complicated than I thought!

I would guess that there is a correlation between religion and poverty and between poverty and crime, so on the large scale you will see a correlation between crime and religion.
However, there is probably also a negative correlation between religion and crime, so the very religious communities have less crime - this would explain Muslim and Mormon communities on the larger scale and Christian communities on a smaller scale. There simply aren't that many large communities of very religious Christians to compare with the Mormons and Muslims.
It is possible that highly secular communities correlates with wealth (and thus lower crime)

Originally posted by Teinosuke
Forgot to come back to this...

It seems from the evidence we've jointly gathered that

a) the more religious states in the US have higher crime rates than the less religious ones, BUT that the more religious parts of the more religious states have lower crime rates than the less religious parts of the more religious states,

and

b) that the leas ...[text shortened]... ormonism, if that counts as Christian!).

Seems like this is more complicated than I thought!

Yeah, but, a correlation isn't very satisfying until other variables are excluded. It makes sense, for example, that Christians would engage in missionary activities where there are higher crimes rates.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I would guess that there is a correlation between religion and poverty and between poverty and crime, so on the large scale you will see a correlation between crime and religion.
However, there is probably also a negative correlation between religion and crime, so the very religious communities have less crime - this would explain Muslim and Mormon commu ...[text shortened]... .
It is possible that highly secular communities correlates with wealth (and thus lower crime)

Nicely argued.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Yeah, but, a correlation isn't very satisfying until other variables are excluded. It makes sense, for example, that Christians would engage in missionary activities where there are higher crimes rates.

Also an interesting point - but the original statistics we drew on did apply to whole countries, and some of the high-crime countries listed are long-established Christian countries, so it's probably not about missionary work. However, it may be true to say that the variables are so fiendishly complicated that it will be hard to eliminate them and establish true correlations.

One problem I see with religous education in schools is that religon is a very sensitive subject with some people. So when it is taught at schools the teacher has to dumn down everything so everyone gets it and doesn't get offended.

Ultimately students get bored.
Religon is not for public schools.
Conrau, I too live in Oz and I've not come across any "comparative religous classes" . When I went to school it was christian indoctrination. I have a child starting primary next year and a child in yr10. QLD and N.S.W.
I have not been impressed by any religous classes offered to me or my kids...

Originally posted by Teinosuke
Also an interesting point - but the original statistics we drew on did apply to whole countries, and some of the high-crime countries listed are long-established Christian countries, so it's probably not about missionary work. However, it may be true to say that the variables are so fiendishly complicated that it will be hard to eliminate them and establish true correlations.

More important however is what conclusions you draw after finding a correlation.
Too often I see people making fairly reasonably studies and finding genuine correlations, the making wild guesses as to the reasons behind the correlation but acting as if their guesses are supported by the figures when in reality there are many other reasonable explanations. Then some journalist picks it up and claims that it is conclusive fact.

The problem with "Christian" countries, is that almost all of them are actually very mixed societies with very few places where nearly everyone can be described as religious. So whatever stats you can find necessarily include a fairly high percentage of people who are not really religious Christians, or not Christian at all.

Originally posted by twhitehead
More important however is what conclusions you draw after finding a correlation.
Too often I see people making fairly reasonably studies and finding genuine correlations, the making wild guesses as to the reasons behind the correlation but acting as if their guesses are supported by the figures when in reality there are many other reasonable explanations ...[text shortened]... ly high percentage of people who are not really religious Christians, or not Christian at all.

Again, you make a very fair and reasonable point.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Let's try:

1. Does Religion Really Reduce Crime?
Paul Heaton
Journal of Law and Economics
Vol. 49, No. 1, Symposium: Piracy and File Sharing (Apr., 2006), pp. 147-172
(article consists of 26 pages)
Published by: The University of Chicago Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3692500
Abstract
Considerable research in sociology, crim ...[text shortened]... highly religious regions of the country-sustaining most of the observed institutional effects.

“…1. Does Religion Really Reduce Crime?…”

Personally, before trying to answer this question, I would be much more concerned with the question:

Is it intrinsically very bad for people to be deluded in a pure fantasy world and so unacceptable EVEN if such dilutions give certain benefits to people such as better behaviour?

(I am not implying here that you would be unconcerned with this question ) I would personally answer “yes” to this question and thus, to me, the question “Does Religion Really Reduce Crime” is a dangerous one because it may imply to people that if the answer is “yes” then it is ok to generate and encourage mass dilutions in people. Wouldn’t it be better to encourage good behaviour while, at the same time, discourage dilutions? –I mean, it must be possible to be both well behaved and NOT delusional? (I am not implying here that you would think otherwise )

One might also ask about certain aspects of religions eg indoctrination.
Does indoctrination generally result in better behavior, or only in some circumstances?
For example there seem to be cases in both religious and non-religious settings where indoctrination has resulted in very violent behavior (eg religious extremists and some communists).

Originally posted by karoly aczel
One problem I see with religous education in schools is that religon is a very sensitive subject with some people. So when it is taught at schools the teacher has to dumn down everything so everyone gets it and doesn't get offended.

Ultimately students get bored.
Religon is not for public schools.
Conrau, I too live in Oz and I've not come across LD and N.S.W.
I have not been impressed by any religous classes offered to me or my kids...

Conrau, I too live in Oz and I've not come across any "comparative religous classes" . When I went to school it was christian indoctrination. I have a child starting primary next year and a child in yr10. QLD and N.S.W.

I have been specifically talking about Victoria and Catholic religious education. The Catholic Education Office for the Archdiocese of Melbourne recommends a series of books To Know, Worship and Love. The series covers the history of the Church, the Church in Australia, the doctrines of the Church, Scriptural exegesis, and finally other religions and a summary of ecumenism and inter-faith dialogue. The Victorian syllabus also offers a subject, Religion and Society, which focuses on comparative religion (our classes attended a mosque as part of study.). It is the most popular 3/4 subject for religion in faith schools. Comparative religion has an established place in the Victorian curriculum.

At my own Catholic high-school I never encountered much doctrinal instruction. None of my religious teachers were even Catholic. When the syllabus focused on, say, the sacraments of the Church, we were simply asked to explain what the Catholic Church understands and teaches, rather than profess any personal commitment to sacramental doctrine. My classes had atheists, Protestant Christians and even a Hindu. No one was brainwashed. In fact it often proved intellectually stimulating and was one of the few times when a class discussion could arise.

I also attended a public school and received religious education. I don't see any problem for this in Australia. Parents have the option to withdraw their students from those classes. But religious education is unlikely to harm them. Activities, as far as I can remember, essentially involved looking at gospel passages, reflecting on the moral force of these passages and then applying this to contemporary issues. There was absolutely no proselytizing in the classroom. Now I do not know what your experiences have been but I am very skeptical of claims to indoctrinations. I don't see it happening; I don't hear of it happening.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Conrau, I too live in Oz and I've not come across any "comparative religous classes" . When I went to school it was christian indoctrination. I have a child starting primary next year and a child in yr10. QLD and N.S.W.

I have been specifically talking about Victoria and Catholic religious education. The Catholic Education Office for the Archdioce ical of claims to indoctrinations. I don't see it happening; I don't hear of it happening.[/b]

Ok Victoria is different (especially private schoools,I've heard many positive high-school stories from Victoria), but you said Australia, so I thought I should pipe up.

Now when they say "religous education" on my childs school enrolment form, they dont mean "religous education", they mean christian indoctrination. There is no bhuddism being taught to my kid. Not here in public school QLD there isn't. Nope, its just christianity.

I dont believe it does much harm, but like I said, kids get bored. Kids act silly when they get bored. And the next you know, in the first year of school, where the new student should be getting used to/ and enjoying their first year, they develop animosity.
No. I haven't seen enough positive come out of "religous education" for me to endorse it.
Having said that, I will repeat that Victoria is different. Especially the private schools...but its a long way to QLD.

Originally posted by twhitehead
One might also ask about certain aspects of religions eg indoctrination.

What do you mean by 'indoctrination'?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Ok Victoria is different (especially private schoools,I've heard many positive high-school stories from Victoria), but you said Australia, so I thought I should pipe up.

Now when they say "religous education" on my childs school enrolment form, they dont mean "religous education", they mean christian indoctrination. There is no bhuddism being taught ...[text shortened]... that Victoria is different. Especially the private schools...but its a long way to QLD.

Now when they say "religous education" on my childs school enrolment form, they dont mean "religous education", they mean christian indoctrination. There is no bhuddism being taught to my kid. Not here in public school QLD there isn't. Nope, its just christianity.

Each school decides the content of the religious education program. If you are dissatisfied, you can discuss it with the principal. Anyway, your comment suggests here that you are comfortable with religious education -- you are just wary of a perceived bias towards Christian doctrine. I think there is a good place for Christianity in the curriculum (amannion I believe just said that.) The bible has an important place in Western history and in the canon of literature.

Anyway, as I understand, NSW offers secular ethics as an alternative to religious education. So parents have many options available for them.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Now when they say "religous education" on my childs school enrolment form, they dont mean "religous education", they mean christian indoctrination. There is no bhuddism being taught to my kid. Not here in public school QLD there isn't. Nope, its just christianity.

Each school decides the content of the religious education program. If you are dissa ...[text shortened]... as an alternative to religious education. So parents have many options available for them.[/b]

I'm pretty sure the secular ethics option in NSW is a trial only and has had some significant opposition from christian groups.
But yes, I think it's worth noting that we (Australia) are a nation based largely (though perhaps loosely) on a christian foundation.

I have no problem with my kids learning about that, and even spouting their professed belief in god and the divinity of Jesus, stuff that they've been taught in their RE classes.
If I jump up and down on them for that, why not jump up and down about their continued belief in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. I figure they'll grow out of it - with my help - and if they don't, well so what. There are worse things in the world than believing in imaginary creators ...

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“…1. Does Religion Really Reduce Crime?…”

Personally, before trying to answer this question, I would be much more concerned with the question:

[b]Is it intrinsically very bad for people to be deluded in a pure fantasy world and so unacceptable EVEN if such dilutions give certain benefits to people such as better behaviour?

(I am not im ...[text shortened]... e both well behaved and NOT delusional? (I am not implying here that you would think otherwise )[/b]

Not exactly sure what you mean here...I am well behaved and NOT delusional using your words. I am also religious.

To answer the question, there are very good people out there who are not religious that are great citizens and help others. By that same token, there are many religious people who are also great citizens who also help others. Does religion itself reduce crime? All I can say is a person’s choice can reduce crime. If someone who is a thief begins attending Church, this person must make the CHOICE himself to quit being a Thief. This is my take on it anyway. It comes down to what choice this person wants to make and the type of life he/she wishes to lead.

Regarding school - my child attends school to learn about Math, English, Science, History, etc. We attend Church every Sunday for 3 hours to learn about the scriptures.