Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, actually I do not defend Aggy's alternative as equal in all respects. If some aspect of his alternative is in principle falsifiable, and no aspect of your alternative is so, that would be a difference.
no its not the same, for unlike Aggy smaggy pudding and pie, i draw inferences from
the natural world, which i can observe, he has no world to which he can point for
Gandalf magicked it away, or so he says, therefore its impossible for him to draw any
inferences from a world which no longer exists. What is more, there are no
archaeological e ...[text shortened]... g mere conjurers tricks. All in all its a sad state of affairs for dear Agers
and ol Gandalf.
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Originally posted by Agergso lets see, Jesus pre arranged his crucifixion, he prearranged that he would be given
ok Bible says nation X is going to get pulverised...some pillock with a shed load of soldiers at his back, having read the Bible and this prophecy comes along later and pulverises X because he thinks its his duty and destiny or whatever.
and I'm meant to be overwhelmed by this??? 😕
sour wine, he pre arranged that he would be stabbed in the side, he prearranged that
the Roman soldiers would cast lots for his garments, all the while having nails driven
through his hands and feet while on a torture stake, its a little hard to believe that he
managed to engineer all of that under the circumstances isnt it Agers.
Whether you are meant to
be overwhelmed or not is not the point, the point has been proven, you have no basis
for your assertion and have provided no evidence other than that which is purely
speculative and which amounts to some have baked conspiracy theory. Don't you find
it rather unsatisfactory to believe things that you cannot prove? Dare i say it, those
which have no basis in reality? well well, who would have thought it, a confirmed
atheist harbouring serious superstitions, in this day and age, the shame of it.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou've given me nothing remarkable so far...lemme help, with respect to this post...please show me:
so lets see, Jesus pre arranged his crucifixion, he prearranged that he would be given
sour wine, he pre arranged that he would be stabbed in the side, he prearranged that
the Roman soldiers would cast lots for his garments, all the while having nails driven
through his hands and feet while on a torture stake, its a little hard to believe that , a confirmed
atheist harbouring serious superstitions, in this day and age, the shame of it.
excerpts from the Bible that specifically mention the character "Jesus" (no, not *a messiah* who could be pattern matched to any poor sap, I want "Jesus" ), proven to have been penned prior to his supposed birth, that lay out the specifics of how this person yet to be born is going to die - nothing wishy washy I want unambiguous details, and yes I will check to see if these accounts were written *after* the supposed event.
Then present evidence this event actually occured in the manner which the Bible describes, without being arranged by people who had already read about this 'prophecy'
Originally posted by robbie carrobieActually, Jesus the Christ was 35 years old at His crucifixion.
i wondered what pedant would pick up on this , would you like me to work out the exact
years, its actually 1977 and 6 months Christ being 33 and a half years when he died.
How can i say it was this very night, because it corresponds to the Jewish month, that
is Nisan the 14th and is calculated by the lunar calender which changes from year to
...[text shortened]... ay and hour the Christ instituted a
covenant with the disciples for a kingdom, it is to laugh!
Originally posted by JS357The essential structure I'm seeking to preserve with that game are the tales of magic and miracles; yes the Bible could be a poorly written commentary of events humans witnessed or imagined, and yes the LoTR fails in this respect. The important part however is the fantastical stuff.
Yes, actually I do not defend Aggy's alternative as equal in all respects. If some aspect of his alternative is in principle falsifiable, and no aspect of your alternative is so, that would be a difference.
Originally posted by Agerg"Can you prove I don't have such a proof?"
So many time we atheists (or non-believers) have been hit with the old fundie chestnut:
"Until you prove God doesn't exist, your belief is as much a position of faith as mine"
(or derivatives of such) and usually we then try to convince the fundie who said this that we could apply the same reasoning to the tooth fairy, Gandalf, the FSM, and so on... ...[text shortened]... too shy/scared to share it with anyone
[b]Can you prove I don't have such a proof?[/b]
I don't know. Can I?
Originally posted by AgergMy God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? (Psalm 22:1 NASB)
You've given me nothing remarkable so far...lemme help, with respect to this post...please show me:
excerpts from the Bible that specifically mention the character "Jesus" (no, not *a messiah* who could be pattern matched to any poor sap, I want "Jesus" ), proven to have been penned prior to his supposed birth, that lay out the specifics of how this person ...[text shortened]... le describes, without being arranged by people who had already read about this 'prophecy'
See Matthew 27:46 Mark 15:34.
All who see me sneer at me; They separate with the lip,
they wag the head, saying, "Commit yourself to the Lord;
let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights
in him." (Psalm 22:7-8 NASB)
See Matthew 27:39-44 Mark 15:29-32 Luke 23:35-37
For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed
me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones,
They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast
lots. (Psalm 22:16-18 NASB)
But He was pierced through for our transgressions...(Isaiah 53:11)
See Matthew 27:35 Mark 15:24 Luke 23:33-34 John 19:23-34
The above are a few references from the old testament section of
the Holy Bible that I was able to find quickly that point to the
way Jesus the Christ was to die.
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Originally posted by RJHindsThe books of matthew, mark, luke were written after the supposed death of Jesus and so at best they were merely talking about (with varying layers of exaggeration) events that had passed to some bloke they refer to as Jesus
My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? (Psalm 22:1 NASB)
See Matthew 27:46 Mark 15:34.
All who see me sneer at me; They separate with the lip,
they wag the head, saying, "Commit yourself to the Lord;
let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights
in him." (Psalm 22:7-8 NASB)
See Matthew 27:39-44 Mark 15:29-32 Luke 23:35-37
For do ...[text shortened]... Holy Bible that I was able to find quickly that point to the
way Jesus the Christ was to die.
Your OT references don't seem to specifically reference "Jesus"
I'm looking for something like:
Book X written decades before the birth of Jesus, specifically mentions a character called "Jesus" on at least one occasion, being killed in a particular manner (in detail), the place he would be killed (in detail), the people who would do the killing (in detail), and valid, falsifiable evidence this occured at the time it was claimed to have occured.
Until you offer me at least this information then your accounts of Jesus are no more remarkable than me fabricating something I falsely claim you posted yesterday based on some random post I saw someone else make before you joined this forum.
Originally posted by AgergYou are not going to find what you are asking for and you know it.
The books of matthew, mark, luke were written after the supposed death of Jesus and so [b]at best they were merely talking about (with varying layers of exaggeration) events that had passed to some bloke they refer to as Jesus
Your OT references don't seem to specifically reference "Jesus"
I'm looking for something like:
[i]Book X written decades ...[text shortened]... yesterday based on some random post I saw someone else make before you joined this forum.[/b]
So there is no need to make out like you are really interested.
But the references in the old testament all put together do not
come close to any known way of death for any person other
than Jesus the Christ. There is actually a little more detail than
I pointed out and these two books are known to date back
before Jesus the Christ was born and some say even before
crucifixion was in practice. So if you will not accept this, then I'm
afraid you are out of luck and must continue in your sins.
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Originally posted by RJHindsNo doubt such references combined with references that don't fit the 'supposedly prophecised crucifixion of Jesus' (and so you don't reference them) could be pattern matched to any number of deaths, with a wide time interval.
You are not going to find what you are asking for and you know it.
So there is no need to make out like you are really interested.
But the references in the old testament all put together do not
come close to any known way of death for any person other
than Jesus the Christ. There is actually a little more detail than
I pointed out and these two books ...[text shortened]... you will not accept this, then I'm
afraid you are out of luck and must continue in your sins.
As for taking interest, this is Robbie Carrobie's skirmish and he has so far offered nothing that I can't explain away effortlessly in a manner more plausible than magic and future forecasting. Do you seriously think that the evidence you present here is persuasive to an atheist???
It doesn't surprise me *some even say* many things to defend their Bible. The simple fact is that if you could provide valid evidence for this nonsense then the game would have been up for us atheists long ago.
We atheists say we don't believe the bible because we genuinely *don't believe the Bible*, and with good reason.
Originally posted by AgergThere is an alternative called Lastthurisdayism, (which which might have to be parsed apart to Google) and an even more severe alternative which I thought I invented or at least advanced, about 8 years ago, on alt.atheism, called Justnowism. But it might not be an original idea.
The essential structure I'm seeking to preserve with that game are the tales of magic and miracles; yes the Bible could be a poorly written commentary of events humans witnessed or imagined, and yes the LoTR fails in this respect. The important part however is the fantastical stuff.
Justnowism is the unassailable position that all that is, came to be just now. Actually, just now. Well, no, cancel that, really just NOW. We have just now, come to be, with these thoughts called memories and all this apparently historical and physical evidence to the contrary. But they have come to be, just now.
Actually, I just now came to be, with that idea, and so did you, to hear it. Congratulations to be in on it!
I could go on.
The point is, it is unfalsifiable. Which is the point I see, in what you call your game. What weight shall we give unfalsifiable conjectures?
This may sound frivolous, but it's really not.
Originally posted by JS357Interestingly I am a follower of Justnowism. I believe quantum mechanics implies that the flow of time is an illusion and we are stationary in time and observing both past and future. We see the past as more solid due to certain properties of the time dimension.
Justnowism is the unassailable position that all that is, came to be just now. Actually, just now. Well, no, cancel that, really just NOW. We have just now, come to be, with these thoughts called memories and all this apparently historical and physical evidence to the contrary. But they have come to be, just now.
Originally posted by AgergThat's fine with me if you don't believe the Holy Bible.
No doubt such references combined with references that don't fit the 'supposedly prophecised crucifixion of Jesus' (and so you don't reference them) could be pattern matched to any number of deaths, with a wide time interval.
As for taking interest, this is Robbie Carrobie's skirmish and he has so far offered nothing that I can't explain away effortl ...[text shortened]... the bible because we genuinely [b]*don't believe the Bible*, and with good reason.[/b]
That is the reason you are not a Christian. For those
of us that do believe, then that is why we are called
Christians.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWow, I would love to think I discovered it in 2003, but that would be violation of Justnowism. Maybe each of us discovers, who do.
Interestingly I am a follower of Justnowism. I believe quantum mechanics implies that the flow of time is an illusion and we are stationary in time and observing both past and future. We see the past as more solid due to certain properties of the time dimension.