Originally posted by DowardLot of qualifiers in these two sentences, which you seem to find important for this debate. What do they tell you?
"But as regards God, if I were not overwhelmed by philosophical prejudices, and if the images of things perceived by the senses did not besiege my thought on every side, I would certainly acknowledge him sooner and more easily than anything else. For what is more manifest than the fact that the supreme being exists, or that God, to whose essence alone existence belongs, exists?" Descarte
Start off in the second sentence, with Descartes saying - I believe God exists. This was normal for his times and jolly important too in the days of the Inquisition. The quote does not actually incorporate - if I doubted this for one moment I would burn alive at the stake. This was nevertheless a factor. But let us accept that he was a child of his times and wished to confirm, through his philosophy, the existence of God.
Then he asks - on what grounds do I have this belief?
He admits - I am overwhelmed by philosophical prejudices - and implies that these make it more difficult and less obvious to believe that God exists. By "prejudices" he means any aspect of philosophical thought that falls short of orthodoxy in the views of any passing Jesuit.
He says it is especially difficult to reconcile with "the images of things perceived by the senses." In more modern parlance, he would reduce that phrase to one word - science.
The mind-body dualism with which he resolved these conflicts has not withstood the test of time, though this does not diminish the huge creativity of his work.
The proof of God's existence would not satisfy any theologian worth their salt. But it would certainly keep the Inquisition satisfied. Sad that in seeking some security with the Queen of Sweden he caught a fatal chill and died. Still at least he didn't burn!
2 edits
Originally posted by finneganHe's no doubt thinking up new ways to flog the same dead horse, or waiting until we all forget this thread so he can flog it again in the same way - he seems to regard it as a genuine proof that God exists!! ;]
Where's Doward gone now? Have I clouded his mind? Sorry, Doward, for clouding your mind.
🙄
Originally posted by finneganThe Holy Spirit has proved to me that God exists. Let's hope, one day
Lot of qualifiers in these two sentences, which you seem to find important for this debate. What do they tell you?
Start off in the second sentence, with Descartes saying - I believe God exists. This was normal for his times and jolly important too in the days of the Inquisition. The quote does not actually incorporate - if I doubted this for one momen ...[text shortened]... with the Queen of Sweden he caught a fatal chill and died. Still at least he didn't burn!
in the future, you will be as lucky. But for now, you are on your own.
Originally posted by Proper KnobWhy don't you try it and tell us how it turns out.
This is true, but there are somethings no matter how hard you believe or how much you convince yourself they are true, they are not. For instance, i could take a large dose of hallucinogenic drugs and convince myself i could fly. I climb to the top of a 20 storey building and throw myself off, will my beliefs make me soar like an eagle or am i going to plummet to the ground like a stone???
Originally posted by tomtom232Jerusalem the biography by Simon Sebag Montefiore has an anecdote that is relevant. In about 1250 the Jews of Baghdad had a teacher who convinced them that on a specified date, if they waited fully armed on their rooftops, they would be swept into the air and land safely in Jerusalem which they would liberate and restore the Jewish nation. There was a carnival atmosphere in the city as non Jews watched amd jeered from the streets. Slowly, as dawn came, the Jews crept down from their roofs, discarded their weaponry and prepared for another normal day.
Why don't you try it and tell us how it turns out.