Respect and the lack their of...

Originally posted by thesonofsaul
Let me make sure I have your train of thought down. According to you, faith in the Christian God is unfathomable therefore faith is untenable. I'm sure you logic experts out there can show us how this is a fallacy.

And there is reason to believe that everyone, or a good many people anyway to avoid the universal, not only have faith but practice fa ...[text shortened]... yone (or most everyone) uses it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

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no. you are clearly either not good at following my train of thought (that could be my problem) or not very good at putting it into words (your problem). at this point, i am not sure which it is, so i will state my position yet again very plainly:

faith entails abandoning reason. while this may be comforting, there is no reason to think that it is beneficial. in fact, the mere observation that faith abandons reason leads me to believe there are clearly better alternatives, since faith entails an inherent separation from knowledge, as i already pointed out.

this may be a stretch, but it sounds to me like you are just trying to rationalize why you choose faith, being that the fact that it simply makes your life more comfortable is clearly not a good justification in and of itself.

i also think the chess analogy is not very good. people make rational moves based on their capacity to reason through lines of play. and people have blundered games away by going with their gut.

Originally posted by LemonJello
here again you are chameleon-like with respect to your arsenal of definitions. there is a separation between faith and knowledge because faith entails believing in something that you cannot possibly fully know or characterize. for example, as a christian you believe in an unknowable god. in fact, you cannot characterize him whatsoever because any posit ...[text shortened]... ink that faith is necessary and there is no reason to think that everyone necessarily has faith.

While I believe on can not know God solely by using one own mind and perceptions - God by definition is knowable simply by God revealing himself. So I know God because he reveals himself to me - he makes himself known to me.

However, can you tell me how you know anything at all? What is your theory of knowledge - your epistemology? How do you know anything exists (your theory of metaphysics)? These are the most fundamental questions. What do you know and how do you know it? If you can not answer them, then nothing else you say carries any weight. But by answering these questions, you will also reveal wherein lies your faith. There is no escaping the fact that you do have faith in something - something you can not prove - but is the basis upon with all you other claims lie.

Everyone has faith necessarily. The only way to avoid faith is to have perfect knowledge of all things - to know all true propositions. And if you have perfect knowledge - you would be God by definition. Are you saying you are God?

Originally posted by LemonJello
no. you are clearly either not good at following my train of thought (that could be my problem) or not very good at putting it into words (your problem). at this point, i am not sure which it is, so i will state my position yet again very plainly:

faith entails abandoning reason. while this may be comforting, there is no reason to think that it is b ...[text shortened]... to reason through lines of play. and people have blundered games away by going with their gut.

Okay, I'm done. You have proven to me that you are not indeed open to reason at all. You will probably throw a fireball my way for that comment--I don't care. Whatever makes you feel better. If you actually think that you reason out everything in your life and that every one of your actions has a logically sound explanation and that every one of your successes is based not on taking a leap without having all the information but instead on actually pondering out specific sound pathways through life, then so be it. I leave you to it. Sheesh. You're worse than the Bible thumpers--at least they understand what it is to be human with the flaws that that entails and don't see themselves as some super-intelligent uber-mench.

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Originally posted by thesonofsaul
Okay, I'm done. You have proven to me that you are not indeed open to reason at all. You will probably throw a fireball my way for that comment--I don't care. Whatever makes you feel better. If you actually think that you reason ...[text shortened]... ee themselves as some super-intelligent uber-mench.

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no fireballs. but i am still not sure you understand my position. i just refuse to make positive assertions that i cannot defend simply because they will make my life more comfortable. my position is NOT that everything can be known to me through reason -- my position is that we should not alienate ourselves into thinking that such things can be known without reason. and we should not so alienate others. i consider myself no more intelligent than you -- we both have the ability to reason.

Originally posted by LemonJello
no. you are clearly either not good at following my train of thought (that could be my problem) or not very good at putting it into words (your problem). at this point, i am not sure which it is, so i will state my position yet again very plainly:

faith entails abandoning reason. while this may be comforting, there is no reason to think that it is b ...[text shortened]... to reason through lines of play. and people have blundered games away by going with their gut.

You said "faith entails abandoning reason"

This proves to me that you dont have an open mind about it, Which means that there is no sence arguing with somone who dont have an open mind

Originally posted by flyUnity
You said "faith entails abandoning reason"

This proves to me that you dont have an open mind about it, Which means that there is no sence arguing with somone who dont have an open mind

why do you say it proves i do not have an open mind?

if you mean that my mind is not open because i do not appear ready to swallow any old thing that someone tries to feed me, then i would agree with you. otherwise, i am not sure why valuing reason would automatically close one's mind. my mind is always open to ideas that make sense. are you suggesting that my mind should be open to nonsense as well?

Originally posted by LemonJello
why do you say it proves i do not have an open mind?

if you mean that my mind is not open because i do not appear ready to swallow any old thing that someone tries to feed me, then i would agree with you. otherwise, i am not sure why valuing reason would automatically close one's mind. my mind is always open to ideas that make sense. are you suggesting that my mind should be open to nonsense as well?

you as an atheist think religion is totaly unresonable, wheras a christian thinks that it is, and that atheism is unresonable, you gotta see both sides to be open minded

Originally posted by flyUnity
you as an atheist think religion is totaly unresonable, wheras a christian thinks that it is, and that atheism is unresonable, you gotta see both sides to be open minded

Using "open mind and "closed mind" as the only options is in itself a symptom of a closed mind.
Defining "christian" as somebody that accepts your view of Christian dogma is also a symptom of an arbitrary closed mind.
Defining "Christian" as somebody that must believes the Old Testament is also a symptom of a arbitary closed mind.

Originally posted by flyUnity
you as an atheist think religion is totaly unresonable, wheras a christian thinks that it is, and that atheism is unresonable, you gotta see both sides to be open minded

i do look at both sides. you have to look at both sides to have a concept of what it is you believe and what it is you are rejecting or accepting. in other words, unless you want to go around making wild arbitrary claims, you have to know what you are claiming.

one can be open-minded and yet still flat out reject one side as being silly, absurd, irrational, etc.

Originally posted by Coletti
However, can you tell me how you know anything at all? What is your theory of knowledge - your epistemology? How do you know anything exists (your theory of metaphysics)? These are the most fundamental questions. What do you know and how do you know it? If you can not answer them, then nothing else you say carries any weight. But by answering these que ...[text shortened]... And if you have perfect knowledge - you would be God by definition. Are you saying you are God?

What is the meaning of "faith"? How is it different from "belief"?

Originally posted by thesonofsaul
Let me make sure I have your train of thought down. According to you, faith in the Christian God is unfathomable therefore faith is untenable. I'm sure you logic experts out there can show us how this is a fallacy.

And there is r ...[text shortened]... t.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

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i realize i am not your favorite RHPer, but i had another objection why i don't think the chess analogy is a good one.

aside from the fact that going with your gut does not necessarily make the chess move a good one, i think there is another fundamental reason why the analogy fails. in chess, with your clock running, if you fail to move, you will, of course, lose the game. when people cannot figure out the 'correct' move because of time constraint or an inability to clearly see all lines of play, it may well be that the rational play is to abstain from making any move; but in chess, this is not an option because it spells certain loss.

in religious matters, it is altogether different. it is certainly acceptable for a person to 'abstain from making a move', that is, to abstain from making positive assertions based on faith. this is essentially agnosticism, and i would argue that a weak form of agnosticism is the only tenable position on such matters. the fact that many people think they must 'make a move' (such as in your chess analogy) is exactly one thing i disagree with.

i didn't mean to come off as a jerk before. i am interested to see what your thoughts are on this.

David

Originally posted by LemonJello
... hope for some flowery afterlife is what propels many people to escape into the comfort of faith rather than confront reality. in my estimation, it would do many well to trade a lot of hope for even a pinch of reason.

Some folks hit the nail on the head, and sometimes, the nail is driven down with one clean stroke of the hammer. LemonJello wields the hammer well.

gets my rec.

Originally posted by Coletti
I would contend that you have adopted faith but have not realized it. There is no true separation between faith and knowledge. To assert that faith is the abandoning of reason reveals your personal prejudice against things you consider "religious". But you can not escape the fact that we all have faith - the question is "in what". What is you a ...[text shortened]... ong to reveal what you put your faith in. And you will see that faith does not mean irrational.

You are correct that faith is not inherently opposed to reason. However, the faith as practiced and preached by many today that puts such hope of punishments and rewards in an afterlife that in impedes work for justice on earth is not only contrary to reason, it is contrary to most sacred scriptures, including the Bible and the Qur'an.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
You are correct that faith is not inherently opposed to reason. However, the faith as practiced and preached by many today that puts such hope of punishments and rewards in an afterlife that in impedes work for justice on earth is not only ...[text shortened]... ry to most sacred scriptures, including the Bible and the Qur'an.

I've attempted to make the point about faith before with other using
this example. I'll throw it out again, and either watch it get slapped or
used this time.

If my son tells me he is going to be somewhere at 10 am and I have
to pick him up. If I leave my home at 9:30 to go get him, am I now
acting in good faith on my son's word, reasoning that he will be there
as he said he would?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I've attempted to make the point about faith before with other using
this example. I'll throw it out again, and either watch it get slapped or
used this time.

If my son tells me he is going to be somewhere at 10 am and I have
to pick him up. If I leave my home at 9:30 to go get him, am I now
acting in good faith on my son's word, reasoning that he will be there
as he said he would?
Kelly

suppose you had never seen your son and had read in a book " Dad, pick me up at 10"