1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    19 May '10 04:261 edit
    I see a lot of people ready to blame anyone and everyone (including a non-existent god) for their misfortune. These same peole have trouble acknowledging those same people when things go well. Such a childish attitude!
    Imo taking responsibilty for the outcomes around them is a very mature and constructive way to view to the world.
    Even when the blame is well founded and accurately directed, what does it achieve? This is a symptom of victimhood, which inturn is a symtom of living in fear. A state that we all need to move out of.
    How about taking responsibility for all that we see around us?
    There is great power in accepting the circumstances of our lives and using our energies to fixing these problems, rather than wasting our energies to identify exactly who is responsible for the trouble.
    Sadly this attitude is backed up by the media and the tv programs that pervade our western lives.
    Time to turn over a new leaf and realize that wasting energy over who did what and punishing the perpetrators of our troubles is actually acieving nothing in terms of moving forward into a new way of living. (I haven't put this as eloquently as I would have liked but I'm sure you get the gist).

    The "bad" that we experience in our lives is actually an opportunity to learn and empower our lives . It is a chance to move closer back to our origonal state and understand our real Self which is connected with our immortal nature.
  2. Cape Town
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    19 May '10 04:39
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I see a lot of people ready to blame anyone and everyone (including a non-existent god) for their misfortune. These same peole have trouble acknowledging those same people when things go well. Such a childish attitude!
    And sometimes we see the exact opposite. At least two posters on here have claimed that God is responsible for all our good choices and He should get all the credit. Oddly they shied away from blaming the Devil for our bad choices - something that is quite popular with others.

    Sadly this attitude is backed up by the media and the tv programs that pervade our western lives.
    I always find it interesting how 'natural disasters' are considered 'acts of God' and how nature takes the blame when in reality the vast majority of them are predictable and preventable and the blame for the deaths should largely fall on us for lack of preparation.
    In Livingstone they have taken it to the extreme. Every second year is a 'drought year' and thus a natural disaster. That way they can blame their poor harvest on nature not on the fact that they don't know that the average rainfall is lower in Livingstone than the rest of the country.
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    19 May '10 04:592 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    And sometimes we see the exact opposite. At least two posters on here have claimed that God is responsible for all our good choices and He should get all the credit. Oddly they shied away from blaming the Devil for our bad choices - something that is quite popular with others.

    [b]Sadly this attitude is backed up by the media and the tv programs that p on't know that the average rainfall is lower in Livingstone than the rest of the country.
    Yes even blaming "God" on natural disasters,(and other undesirable situations), keeps the illusion of separation (from god) going.
    Even though the circumctances of our lives would suggest that we are separate from creation/reality, I think that this is an illusion (albeit a persistant one,as Einstein pointed out), and that we have the potential ,via the proper use of our minds , to overcome this state of nisunderstanding.
    I realize one needs to take on a premise,(ie. that that in our origonal states we are "one" with "God" ), but that is the case with any spiritual undertaking.

    This line of thinking is helpful/constructive not just with God but also with our fellow humans,animals,aliens and just about anything that poses a percieved opposition to our ego orientations.
  4. Cape Town
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    19 May '10 06:01
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I realize one needs to take on a premise,(ie. that that in our origonal states we are "one" with "God" ), but that is the case with any spiritual undertaking.
    Why must one take anything on premise?
  5. Cape Town
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    19 May '10 06:05
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    This line of thinking is helpful/constructive ....
    When you say 'helpful/constructive', do you mean useful in getting to the truth, or useful for whatever reason?
    It must not be forgotten that false beliefs may be useful psychologically and that blaming God or others for our faults may not be such a bad thing if the truth is not that important to us.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    19 May '10 08:14
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Why must one take anything on premise?
    I propose that to get into spirituality one must take on a premise (something like "we are one with God" )to furthur understanding the mechanics of the universe.
    If one enquires sincerely into their premise (cross-refrencing, researching,etc.) then one can see whether the origonal premise has any merit or whether it is false.
    Either way this type of seeking can quickly see whether the origonal premise has any merit or not. Thus engaging in the process of elimination-one of the ways to find out about all things, including spirituality.
  7. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    19 May '10 08:16
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    When you say 'helpful/constructive', do you mean useful in getting to the truth, or useful for whatever reason?
    It must not be forgotten that false beliefs may be useful psychologically and that blaming God or others for our faults may not be such a bad thing if the truth is not that important to us.
    As with all things, it is a given that I'm always pursuing the truth. Even if that "truth" is just a stepping stone onto other "truths" .
  8. Cape Town
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    19 May '10 08:23
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I propose that to get into spirituality one must take on a premise (something like "we are one with God" )to furthur understanding the mechanics of the universe.
    If one enquires sincerely into their premise (cross-refrencing, researching,etc.) then one can see whether the origonal premise has any merit or whether it is false.
    Either way this type o ...[text shortened]... e process of elimination-one of the ways to find out about all things, including spirituality.
    So did your seeking quickly see whether the original premise have any merit or not?

    I still don't understand why you need a premise in the first place. Seems rather ridiculous to me. I certainly don't see how it can further your understanding of the mechanics of the universe.
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    19 May '10 08:481 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So did your seeking quickly see whether the original premise have any merit or not?

    I still don't understand why you need a premise in the first place. Seems rather ridiculous to me. I certainly don't see how it can further your understanding of the mechanics of the universe.
    The premise-type enquiry leads to direct personal understanding of what the truth of the given matter may be.
    Think of sweet and sour. Are you going to take someone elses word for it that it tastes good fo you? I wouldn't .
    The only truth that is infallible(possibly need a better word there), is the one you have experienced for yourself, no?
    While others may be telling the truth, I, for one, cannot accept it as absolute until I have sampled it myself. You see where I'm going with this?
    EDIT: please note that in my language terms like "universal machanics, God, reality" are interchangeable and given the right context could mean loosely the same thing.
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    19 May '10 20:102 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I see a lot of people ready to blame anyone and everyone (including a non-existent god) for their misfortune. These same peole have trouble acknowledging those same people when things go well. Such a childish attitude!
    Imo taking responsibilty for the outcomes around them is a very mature and constructive way to view to the world.
    Even when the blame our origonal state and understand our real Self which is connected with our immortal nature.
    Time to turn over a new leaf and realize that wasting energy over who did what and punishing the perpetrators of our troubles is actually acieving nothing in terms of moving forward into a new way of living.

    I agree with you that when I stand back and introspect on some of our base inclinations to expend energy with retaliation or punishment or laying blame, etc, there is generally not much I see to actually recommend or endorse these things in most cases. I consider it negative energy that should instead be put to better use. Unfortunately, though, there are very good evolutionary reasons why natural selection brought such inclinations about in us (I would say related mostly to considerations regarding indirect reciprocity and reputation, etc) and thus they are quite infixed in us and our environment.

    So this leads into a topic that I think is very interesting. Let's suppose there are some base inclinations that are quite evolutionarily infixed in us but are also such that we do not value them when we stand back from them under introspection (or, further, under such introspection we wish they were not there or that we could somehow remove them from us). The question is, how incorrigible are they? How much ability does one have through voluntary cognition and introspection, etc, to effect his dispositional sets? And what are the relevant avenues available to him if this is his project? I think we should have the ability to tap into quite a bit of control, but I do not think I have yet the understanding or learning to answer these questions very well at all.

    Let's suppose in the course of your learning and maturation and introspection, you have come to devalue some of the attitudes and inclinations that naturally just seem to spring from within you. That realization in itself should probably not really prevent such things from continuing to spring from within you. But presumably there may be some practices you could engage in to effect the set of things that naturally spring from within you? Or will they just keep springing from within you regardless of what you intend and do; but then you will have the ability to react and respond differently when they do so, tempered by your greater understanding of them? Either way, it seems one has to be vigilant.
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    21 May '10 21:08
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    [b]Time to turn over a new leaf and realize that wasting energy over who did what and punishing the perpetrators of our troubles is actually acieving nothing in terms of moving forward into a new way of living.

    I agree with you that when I stand back and introspect on some of our base inclinations to expend energy with retaliation or punishment ...[text shortened]... tempered by your greater understanding of them? Either way, it seems one has to be vigilant.[/b]
    We could further complicate this by examining cultural/social conditioning (particularly at young ages, even pre-verbal) that may affect not just what we think but how we think, and how we frame our perceptions. It is possible that, upon reflective introspection, we might discover natural dispositions and evolved instinctive responses that were suppressed and/or atrophied by such conditioning, but that we might discover are valuable for our everyday surviving/thriving. There are, perhaps, three layers: natural disposition, learning/conditioning, and reflective introspection.

    I’m not sure that there can be any generalized answers to your inquiry--which I agree is profoundly interesting! Any appropriate balance (for surviving/thriving) is likely to be very context-dependent. I think you’re right about vigilance.

    _____________________________________________________


    I am reminded here of a joke: Three of our prehistoric forbears were walking up a trail, when suddenly they were confronted by a huge, snarling saber-toothed tiger. One of them leapt in front of the others, spear raised, and shouted: “Don’t worry, I’ll protect you!” One of them stood in the path, examining the creature with interest, muttering: “Don’t be hasty. We should reflect a bit. Besides, we should see how we might study this creature.” The third one was already a hundred yards back down the path, screaming in terror and running for all he was worth.

    That third one is our ancestor…

    ______________________________________________________


    Of course, that story is about an immediate survival situation. Your inquiry is much broader, I realize. 🙂
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    22 May '10 00:41
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    [b]Time to turn over a new leaf and realize that wasting energy over who did what and punishing the perpetrators of our troubles is actually acieving nothing in terms of moving forward into a new way of living.

    I agree with you that when I stand back and introspect on some of our base inclinations to expend energy with retaliation or punishment ...[text shortened]... tempered by your greater understanding of them? Either way, it seems one has to be vigilant.[/b]
    Good post.
    On the nature of answering questions I'm sure a lot of them have been answered.

    I know some friends and myself have sat down together and come up some great solutions to some very pertinent questions.
    Now if we could just get of our arses and spread the word and do something about it.
  13. Joined
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    22 May '10 05:211 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    We could further complicate this by examining cultural/social conditioning (particularly at young ages, even pre-verbal) that may affect not just what we think but how we think, and how we frame our perceptions. It is possible that, upon reflective introspection, we might discover natural dispositions and evolved instinctive responses that were suppressed a ...[text shortened]... at story is about an immediate survival situation. Your inquiry is much broader, I realize. 🙂
    Hi, nice to see you around.

    I definitely agree with you. If we take an all things considered approach to this, I think it would be difficult to overstate the importance of cultural/social conditioning. I was mostly targeting some kind of personal input that comes later in development, but even that subject is itself probably wrapped up inextricably with the conditioning you mention. I was reading an essay recently that describes this by Jennifer Welchman (who was writing about the work of John Dewey):

    "If you and I are free, autonomous persons who can claim virtues of character, it is not because we were born so but because interaction with others has taught us to reflect upon and to take some control over ourselves and our actions.

    Initially most of the credit goes to our social group, whose inculcation of habits of thought, reflection, approval, and disapproval gave us the tools to recognize and reflect upon, and inhibit or reinforce our first-order dispositions and temperamental promptings in accordance with more or less coherent schemes of value. The credit, thereafter, is increasingly our own, as we reflect upon and revise the membership and rank-ordering of the consortium of higher order action guiding dispositions that for Dewey constitute our characters. But the credit never becomes entirely our own. Early socialization leaves enduring legacies for good or ill. And characters are never transparent to their possessors...."
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
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    22 May '10 07:30
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Hi, nice to see you around.

    I definitely agree with you. If we take an all things considered approach to this, I think it would be difficult to overstate the importance of cultural/social conditioning. I was mostly targeting some kind of personal input that comes later in development, but even that subject is itself probably wrapped up inextricably w ...[text shortened]... g legacies for good or ill. And characters are never transparent to their possessors...."[/i]
    Hah hah! I would love to know what exactly that daughter of a noble family Jennifer Welchman would say if she knew that in the Tibetan tradition the notion “lama” is understood at three levels:

    1. All the teachers of the Genealogy (brgyud-pa’ I bla-ma), thus all the teachers that kept intact the mystic tradition from which all disciples received the transmittance
    2. All the teachers from whom the disciples received transmittance at this specific bardo regardless of one's specific tradition/ school (‘dreu-pa’ I bla-ma)
    3. One's current teacher (rtsa-ba’ I bla-ma), the one who drove the disciple to getting to know the nature of her/ his mind, the one who transmitted to the disciple from mind to mind the essentials for the understanding of the disciple
    😵
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    22 May '10 12:16
    Originally posted by vistesd
    We could further complicate this by examining cultural/social conditioning (particularly at young ages, even pre-verbal) that may affect not just what we think but how we think, and how we frame our perceptions. It is possible that, upon reflective introspection, we might discover natural dispositions and evolved instinctive responses that were suppressed a ...[text shortened]... at story is about an immediate survival situation. Your inquiry is much broader, I realize. 🙂
    "It is possible that, upon reflective introspection, we might discover natural dispositions and evolved instinctive responses that were suppressed and/or atrophied by such conditioning, but that we might discover are valuable for our everyday surviving/thriving."

    Did you mean this as a question vistesd? If so I find this question very interesting and worth exploring. (At least it is to me)

    I have noticed that every living thing has a survival instinct. When threatened with extinction, i.e. trapped or cornered, (besides maybe plant life) all creatures will strive to the death to cling to life.

    My question, if I have a question, is about our natural disposition and/or evolved instinctive response to life threatening situations.

    It seems to me that on one level, having personal experience with life threatening situations, my response was cognitive, while on another level was primal.

    Maybe my question is, how is it spiritual? Is there a link between primal instinctive evolved responses and spirit? If there is spirit would that not suggest that there is some kind of substance to spirit in order for there to be a link?
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