Revelation 17,18

Originally posted by sonship
[b]
Today, Islam's holy Mecca city with its Kaaba Stone idol, where Muslims from around the world come to bow down in worship, seems more likely to many of us.
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We know that is a huge matter of idolatry. But its subtly is not as insidious as that i ...[text shortened]... e the Wife of Christ.

The contrast between the Harlot in 17 and the Bride in 19 must be seen.[/b]

It is true that in the first three chapters of Revelation that the Christian Churches are warned of its departures from the faith, but it seems clear to me that the Harlot riding the Beast can not be the Christian Church. The ones beheading the Saints are certainly not other Christians. It is those that believe in Islam, not Christianity.

It is the Muslims of Islam that worship the moon god and bow down toward the star that fell from heaven as an idol in Mecca. It seems clear to me that the endtime scene in Revelation 17 is in the middle eastern wilderness of Saudia Arabia that the Harlot City that John sees as "Babylon the Great" is located. It certainly is not in Rome, Italy. There are no Christians being beheaded in Rome, Italy to my knowledge. 😏

The Whore of Babylon

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Why Imam Al Mahdi will destroy Saudi Arabia

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Originally posted by RJHinds

It is the Muslims of Islam that worship the moon god and bow down toward the star that fell from heaven as an idol in Mecca. It seems clear to me that the endtime scene in Revelation 17 is in the middle eastern wilderness of Saudia Arabia that the Harlot City that John sees as "Babylon the Great" is located. It certainly is not in Rome, Italy. There are no Christians being beheaded in Rome, Italy to my knowledge.
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The Harlot and the Woman are closely related. And I said there was some overlap. But I said the Harlot speaks of the false wife - the world wide public Church of the Roman Empire, the Roman Catholic Church.

The Woman I said is the city of Rome. The strongest reason for saying that she means Rome is the fact that she sits on seven mountains.

"Here is a mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits." (Rev. 17:9)

Look up in Wiki Seven Hills of Rome and read -

The Seven Hills of Rome (Italian: Sette colli di Roma [ˈsɛtte ˈkɔlli di ˈroːma], Latin: Septem montes Romae) east of the river Tiber form the geographical heart of Rome, within the walls of the ancient city.

The seven hills are:[1]

Aventine Hill (Latin, Aventinus; Italian, Aventino)
Caelian Hill (Caelius, Celio)
Capitoline Hill (Capitolinus, Campidoglio)
Esquiline Hill (Esquilinus, Esquilino)
Palatine Hill (Palatinus, Palatino)
Quirinal Hill (Quirinalis, Quirinale)
Viminal Hill (Viminalis, Viminale)

This is a geographic detail not to be ignored. While it does not say the Harlot sits on seven hills, it does say the Woman does. So we believe Rome is the Woman.

The Harlot is not said to be sitting on seven mountains but on the multitudes of many tongues and nations.

" ... I will show you the judgment of the great HARLOT who sits upon the many waters." (17:1 RcV my emphasis)

" And he said to me. The waters which you saw, where the HARLOT sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." (v.15)

The more someone protests that the Harlot cannot be Rome, the more I have to point out that there is some distinction between the Harlot and the Woman. But they are closely related.


Though it is not easy to always separate the Harlot concept from the concept of the geographical Rome. Afterall, [/b]Rome[/b] is the capital of the Roman Catholic Church with its Vatican.

You speak of no beheading going on in Rome now. But this is not a strong point for reading Islam caliphate into Rev. 17,18 IMO..

The Antichrist will eventually go to Jerusalem. And it is in Jerusalem his most fiercest persecution will emanate from as he sits in the rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The idol which is caused to speak is more associated with the city of Jerusalem than it is the city of Rome.

Where is the idol of the abomination of desolation to be set up ? (Matt. 24:15)

The beheading of those who do not worship the speaking image should be more associated with Jerusalem where Antchrist proclaims himself God then in Rome.

That is all the time I can give this morning.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]
It is the Muslims of Islam that worship the moon god and bow down toward the star that fell from heaven as an idol in Mecca. It seems clear to me that the endtime scene in Revelation 17 is in the middle eastern wilderness of Saudia Arabia that the Harlot City that John sees as "Babylon the Great" is located. It certainly is not in Rome, Italy. There are ...[text shortened]... Antchrist proclaims himself God then in Rome.

That is all the time I can give this morning.

The angel tells John that the woman sitting on the beast in the desert wilderness is the same as the whore or harlot sitting on many waters (many people, nations, and languages).

Revelation 17:1,3,5,6,18
Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration... And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

So it is clear that the woman is the same as the whore or harlot and not a wife at all. The woman represents a great city in the desert where idolatry is performed by the kings of the earth. Today, that great city must be Mecca, Saudia Arabia.

We know from Daniel that the Beast represents a kingdom or empire.

Revelation 17:8-14
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition... And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

The angel says nothing about seven hills. Instead, the angel says the seven heads are seven mountains in the Beast kingdom that the woman sits. A beast is defined as a nation or empire that is influenced by Satan and the seven heads or mountains of Revelation 17 are then Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and Islamic Caliphate (Ottoman). The seventh beast empire was Islamic ending with the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922. Revelation 13 and 17 claims that the “head” or "king" will be revived as the eight.

1.Egypt
2.Assyria
3.Babylon (first beast of Daniel 7)
4.Medo-Persia (second beast of Daniel 7)
5.Greece (third beast of Daniel 7)
6.Rome
7.Islamic Caliphate (fourth beast of Daniel 7)
8.Revived Islamic Caliphate

Consider how Mecca and an Islamic empire fits the criteria.

1. Mecca influences over 1.5 billion people from all nations and countries
2. Western nations are desperate for oil from the world’s largest supplier
3. Arabia is a desert wilderness, and Mecca is the spiritual home where Muslims go for idol worship
4. Saudi Arabia does a huge trade in gold and jewellery and is subverting the west by funding terror
5. Muslims has killed millions and Islam demands the killing of all Jews and the beheading of Christians
6. Some Muslims hate Saudi Arabia because they believe it has corrupted Islam and predict the destruction of Medina and Mecca.
7. The judgement could well be a nuclear device if it is to come in one hour.

HalleluYaH !!!
Praise the LORD !!!
Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds

The angel tells John that the woman sitting on the beast in the desert wilderness is the same as the whore or harlot sitting on many waters (many people, nations, and languages).
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I said the Harlot and the Women are closely and sometimes they appear to overlap.

Revelation 17:1,3,5,6,18
Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

The Harlot is mentioned in verse 1

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The Harlot is mentioned in verse 1a but the Woman is mentioned in verse 1b. And the interpretation of the many waters where the Harlot sits is given explicitly in verse 15. And it mentions the Harlot in the interpretation:

"And he said to me, The waters which you saw, where the harlots sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues."

In other words, John should think of the beast as many waters - multitudes, nations, tongues.

That is the mysterious world wide public Roman Catholic Church. She spreads her religion all over the world.

And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

When it speaks of the great city in verse 18 that is the great city of Rome.

"And the WOMAN [Rome] whom you saw is THE GREAT CITY which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

So the vision pertains to a MYSTERY religious Mother of prostitutes and also a great city situated on seven hills. Mountains and hills virtually the same thing.

A brief word I will give here about the overlap of the two - the Harlot and the Woman. And I admit that this is not easy to explain why it was revealed this way.

It should not surprise you that the symbolism could have two related meanings. The seven heads of the beast have TWO meanings also.

In verse 3 we read -

"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.'" (v.9)

But we are also immediately told in in the next verse that the seven heads are seven kings -

" Here is a mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are THE seven mountains where the woman sits. (v.9)

AND are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come ... etc. "(vs.9,10a)

Since there is DUAL meaning in the seven heads of the beast, as the angel explains, we should not be too surprised that the symbol of a Harlot / Woman also carries DUAL significance. IE. The Roman Catholic Church and the Great City of Rome.

Cont. below.

The Woman is "clothed in purple and scarlet." (verse 4) . Purple signifies dignity with authority. In John 19:2,3 the soldiers mocked Christ by putting a purple robe around Him. This was a mocking of His dignity and authority.

The color purple is made up of the blend of blue and red. And the blending of these colors represent the heavenly things blended with earthly things. Though it does mention the woman as clothed this way, it is probably significant that these colors blended can be found very much in the Vatican.

The color scarlet can be found everywhere in the Vatican. The most striking example is the garments of the cardinals. They also done red hats and red robes.

More significant is the gilding of the woman.

"And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and gilded with gold and precious stone and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication." (v.4)

Gold in figure signifies the divine nature of God. The golden cup is not held by a pagan moon worshiping Islam. Nothing of the true God or God's nature is related to that moon worship or meteor worship.

But the apostate church does have something of God in appearance. No one can argue that Roman Catholicism has had some great theologians who were godly and taught the world about God. But within this relationship to God is also the abominable things of idolatry, pagan practices, filthiness in heretical, sinful, and superstitious things. They are all mixed together in a religious relationship.

Originally posted by RJHinds

The book of Daniel prophesies that the Antichrist will put down ALL religion and objects of worship.

" And the king will do as he pleases; and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and against the God of gods he will speak extraordinary things; and he will prosper until the indignation is complete; for what has been determined will be done. "(Dan. 11:36,37)

And it says he will not regard the gods of his fathers. So it does not fit well with a Moslem.

" And he will not regard the gods of his fathers or the desire of women, nor will he regard any other god; for he will magnify himself above all." (v.37)

This Antichrist will have no regard for traditional religion. This does not fit well with any advocate of Islam, as distorted and persecutorial as Islam is today. And he should not care about martyrdom or 70 virgin women in heaven for him. He will not care for the desire of women.

This may also indicate that women cannot be used to trip him up and make him stumble. As affairs with women have blemished many a world leader. This Antichrist will not care for women.

You might think of a fierce SECULAR reaction to Islam producing such a problem solver. It may happen in this manner - that a strong secular anti-religious leader will rise up because of the world's fear of religious extremism.

Then after being assassinated and coming back to life he becomes that supernatural Antichrist thoroughly united with Satan. You should consider that as a possibility, a logical alternative to the Antichrist or False Prophet being Islamic.

Originally posted by RJHinds

The angel says nothing about seven hills. Instead, the angel says the seven heads are seven mountains in the Beast kingdom that the woman sits.

This objection is rather weak. Mountains, hills - virtually the same thing.

You have Mount Zion in the Bible. You also have Zion's holy hill.
Seven mountains are seven hills.

A beast is defined as a nation or empire that is influenced by Satan and the seven heads or mountains of Revelation 17 are then Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and Islamic Caliphate (Ottoman).

You linked Rome and the Islamic Caliphate together.
You had to do this to round out the number to FOUR.

But the TWO iron legs of the image Daniel saw are better interpreted as the East and West sides of the Roman Empire.

The seventh beast empire was Islamic ending with the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922. Revelation 13 and 17 claims that the “head” or "king" will be revived as the eight.

1.Egypt
2.Assyria
3.Babylon (first beast of Daniel 7)
4.Medo-Persia (second beast of Daniel 7)
5.Greece (third beast of Daniel 7)
6.Rome
7.Islamic Caliphate (fourth beast of Daniel 7)
8.Revived Islamic Caliphate

The history is interesting. But the image Daniel saw had FOUR Major sections.
And the TOES were of mixture of iron and clay.

The Roman politics has greatly influenced the rise of modern democracies. And I think the TOES of the image after the two legs of the East and West Roman Empire signify the rise of modern democracies based largely on Roman politics.

The stone cut out without hands hits at the end of the ages when DEMOCRACIES are very much about in all the world.

Consider how Mecca and an Islamic empire fits the criteria.

1. Mecca influences over 1.5 billion people from all nations and countries
2. Western nations are desperate for oil from the world’s largest supplier
3. Arabia is a desert wilderness, and Mecca is the spiritual home where Muslims go for idol worship
4. Saudi Arabia does a huge trade in gold and jewellery and is subverting the west by funding terror
5. Muslims has killed millions and Islam demands the killing of all Jews and the beheading of Christians
6. Some Muslims hate Saudi Arabia because they believe it has corrupted Islam and predict the destruction of Medina and Mecca.
7. The judgement could well be a nuclear device if it is to come in one hour.

History has proved that very very significant things can happen which may not be explicitly prophesied about in the Bible.

So I do not deny the powerful significance to world history in some of these things. No one is saying that what is happening with Islam is not important.

I think while you meditate on these things consider a powerful SECULAR REACTION to Islam may just furnish the ground out of which the final Antichrist will spring up. That is possible.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] The angel tells John that the woman sitting on the beast in the desert wilderness is the same as the whore or harlot sitting on many waters (many people, nations, and languages).
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I said the Harlot and the Women are closely and sometimes they appear to over ...[text shortened]... s DUAL significance. IE. The Roman Catholic Church and the Great City of Rome.

Cont. below.[/b]

The angel is explaining the Whore or Harlot by showing John the Women that has the Mother of Harlots written on her forehead. So common sense would tell us that the Woman is the same as the Whore or Harlot. They are not two different people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

In prophecy Mountains = Political or religio-political powers (See Isaiah 2:2, 3; Jeremiah 17:3; 31:23; 51:24, 25; Ezekiel 17:22, 23; Daniel 2:35, 44, 45).

You should let the Holy Bible interpret itself as much as possible. The angel has identified the mountains as heads and also as kings or kingdom powers. So the fact that both Rome and Mecca are built on seven hills is just a coincidence and irrelevant to the prophecy.

Originally posted by sonship
The Woman is [b]"clothed in purple and scarlet." (verse 4) . Purple signifies dignity with authority. In John 19:2,3 the soldiers mocked Christ by putting a purple robe around Him. This was a mocking of His dignity and authority.

The color purple is made up of the blend of blue and red. And the blending of these colors represent the heaven ...[text shortened]... ical, sinful, and superstitious things. They are all mixed together in a religious relationship.[/b]

When it comes to the Harlot woman, the Kaaba is a perfect match. The black tarp is considered by Muslims to be a woman’s dress (Kiswa). Everything that the harlot is described fits the Kaaba; dress, pearls, jewels, gold, silver and even the blasphemies etched in silver threads with golden inlays across her attire. Just the doors of the Kaaba alone has 280 kilograms of pure gold. The Kaaba has a scarlet-colored inner garment. The Black Stone that fell from heaven was historically dedicated to Aphrodite, the prostitute goddess. After the Hajj was preformed by Muhammad, the ‘rubbing and kissing the of the Black Stone was extremely passionate.

The Islamic Black Stone of Mecca Exposed

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Originally posted by sonship
The book of [b]Daniel prophesies that the Antichrist will put down ALL religion and objects of worship.
" And he will not regard the gods of his fathers or the desire of women, nor will he regard any other god; for he will magnify himself above all." (v.37)[/b]

No regard for the “desire of women” – Islam Fits the Profile

A practicing Muslim man raped and threatened a young Norwegian girl for several hours. Numerous rapes in Sweden over the past several years have been committed by “non-Western men,” e.g., Muslims. In fact, in the past year, all rapes in Oslo have been committed by non-Western men.

“He said that he had the right to do exactly as he wanted to a woman. Why? Because that is how it was in his religion. Women did not have rights or opinions. He was in charge.”

Islam teaches utter disrespect for women, who are mere possessions of savage men, to be raped whenever the beasts feel like it. At least this rapist admitted that fact of Islamic misogyny and sexism, which should be obvious to anyone with eyes to see.

“Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223

“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34

“A male shall inherit twice as much as a female.” Quran 4:11

“Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses…” Quran 2:282

http://freethoughtnation.com/pakistani-muslim-rapist-admits-women-have-no-rights-or-opinions-in-islam/

Originally posted by RJHinds

A practicing Muslim man raped and threatened a young Norwegian girl for several hours. Numerous rapes in Sweden over the past several years have been committed by “non-Western men,” e.g., Muslims. In fact, in the past year, all rapes in Oslo have been committed by non-Western men.
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The issue is not lust for women GENERALLY among some Moslem men. The issue is the absence of the desire for women of the Antichrist (Dan. 11:37)

"And he will not regard the gods of his fathers or the desire of women ..."

It is the Antichrist, specifically, who will care nothing for women.

It could be mentioned that if the Antichrist is Caesar Nero, as the calculation of the number of his name indicates, Nero certainly DID have a lust for women, including committing incest. But this is the spirit of Nero come up from the abyss and entering into the body of another man. The Word of God says he will care nothing for women (Daniel 11:37) .


“He said that he had the right to do exactly as he wanted to a woman. Why? Because that is how it was in his religion. Women did not have rights or opinions. He was in charge.”
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One could conceivably interpret that " no regard ... for the desire of women " to indicate the OPPRESSION of women. But I don't think that is the meaning of verse 37.

I take it not as he desires them for oppression but rather that he has no desire for the pleasure that relations with a women gives the typical man. His utmost pleasures and dedications lie elsewhere.


“Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223

That means that men are encouraged to take desire of women.
And that is why the promise of virgins is given to those men who go to heaven.

The absence of desire - period is what I think the prophecy means. The passages form the Quran on oppression and sexism are not the issue. Agreed, they are despicable. But it is besides the point.

Antichrist after he is resuscitated will be the spirit of Caesar Nero within the physical body of a coming man who is slain to death and comes back to life. The world will wonder after such an extraordinary being.

"And one of his heads was as it were slain to death, and his death stroke was healed. And the whole earth marveled after the beast." (Rev. 13:3)

Before he is slain he has a personality that is winning and attractive. He will be brilliantly intelligent and a solver of world problems.

But he will be slain and brought back to life from a Satanic activity. When the corpse is made alive again it is with the spirit of Nero. There is no other way that Nero Caesar as 6 6 6 can be on earth again in the last three and one half years of this age.

And it is commonly and I believe rightly calculated that the letters of the Hebrew and the Greek of the name Caesar Nero calculate out to

Nero = 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 = 306
Kaisar = 100 + 60 + 200 = 360

306 + 360 = 666 (Greek letter and Hebrew letter fonts I lack here )

"Here is wisdom, Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred sixty six. " (Rev. 13:18)

In the seven last years of this age, the coming king will be a normal man in the first have of those years before he is killed. When he comes to life again he is a composite of the spirit of Nero with the body of that previously assassinated person.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] A practicing Muslim man raped and threatened a young Norwegian girl for several hours. Numerous rapes in Sweden over the past several years have been committed by “non-Western men,” e.g., Muslims. In fact, in the past year, all rapes in Oslo have been committed by non-Western men.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... pression and sexism are not the issue. Agreed, they are despicable. But it is besides the point.[/b]

It means that his religion does not consider the desires of the women. The women are merely property of the men to do with them as they please. The desires of the women is the last thing they would consider. Just look at the way the women are treated in the most Islamic countries where Sharia Law is in effect.

Women Under Sharia Law

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What Life Will Be Like for Women Under Sharia Law

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