Originally posted by SuzianneFirst of all my perspective is clear because i am the only one that has not ventured beyond what can be established from scripture.
You're as unclear on what is being spoken about here as you are about most of your unbiblical dogma.
1. Your hypothesis was refuted when it was demonstrated to you that the harlot is a global entity not a single entity
2. Jaywills hypothesis (regurgitated form of the Calvinism) was also shown to be false when it was pointed out that it was not a single entity.
and here you are talking about what is clear? your statement is mockworthy and your insinuation of unbiblical doctrine demonstrably false because clearly I am the only one that is prepared not to go beyond what is written, self appointed authorities like you only know your ego and practically little else thats why all of your statements reek of egotism.
Identifying “Babylon the Great”
THE book of Revelation contains expressions that are not to be understood literally. (Revelation 1:1) For example, it mentions a woman with the name “Babylon the Great” written on her forehead. This woman is said to be sitting on “crowds and nations.” (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15) Since no literal woman could do this, Babylon the Great must be symbolic. So, what does this symbolic prostitute represent?
At Revelation 17:18, the same figurative woman is described as “the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” The term “city” indicates an organized group of people. Since this “great city” has control over “the kings of the earth,” the woman named Babylon the Great must be an influential organization that is international in scope. It can rightly be called a world empire. What kind of empire? A religious one. Notice how some related passages in the book of Revelation lead us to this conclusion.
An empire can be political, commercial, or religious. The woman named Babylon the Great is not a political empire because God’s Word states that “the kings of the earth,” or the political elements of this world, “committed sexual immorality” with her. She has practiced such immorality by forming alliances with the rulers of this earth and has done whatever is necessary in order to gain power and influence over them. That is why she is called “the great prostitute.”—Revelation 17:1, 2; James 4:4.
Babylon the Great cannot be a commercial empire because “the merchants of the earth,” representing the commercial elements, will be mourning her at the time of her destruction. In fact, both kings and merchants are described as looking at Babylon the Great from “a distance.” (Revelation 18:3, 9, 10, 15-17) Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that Babylon the Great is, not a political or a commercial empire, but a religious one.
The religious identity of Babylon the Great is further confirmed by the statement that she misleads all the nations by means of her “spiritistic practices.” (Revelation 18:23) Since all forms of spiritism are religious and demon-inspired, it is not surprising that the Bible calls Babylon the Great “a dwelling place of demons.” (Revelation 18:2; Deuteronomy 18:10-12) This empire is also described as being actively opposed to true religion, persecuting “prophets” and “holy ones.” (Revelation 18:24) In fact, Babylon the Great has such deep hatred for true religion that she violently persecutes and even murders “the witnesses of Jesus.” (Revelation 17:6) Hence, this woman named Babylon the Great clearly represents the world empire of false religion, which includes all religions that stand in opposition to Jehovah God.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005161
Brilliant reasoning from the Brothers!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI agree that this is the embodiment of the old false Babylonian religious system brought into the modern age. However, spiritually speaking, the symbolic woman that is named "Babylon the Great" is said to be a "Harlot" that commits fornication with the kings of the earth and is figurative of religious idolatry.
Identifying “Babylon the Great”
THE book of Revelation contains expressions that are not to be understood literally. (Revelation 1:1) For example, it mentions a woman with the name “Babylon the Great” written on her forehead. This woman is said to be sitting on “crowds and nations.” (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15) Since no literal woman could do this, Ba ...[text shortened]... igions that stand in opposition to Jehovah God.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005161
It was once thought by practically all Protestant Christians that this could only be speaking of the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican City with its Papacy. Today, Islam's holy Mecca city with its Kaaba Stone idol, where Muslims from around the world come to bow down in worship, seems more likely to many of us.
The beast the woman rides is all the Empires past, present, and future that she has influenced by the cult teachings of the gods of the moon and star. Today, Islam is symbolized by the crescent moon and star as was the ancient religion of Babylon.
In Revelation 13:2 the Beast is described as being a composite of a leopard (Grecian), bear (Medo-Persian/Iran) and a lion (Babylonian). Islam is simply a revival of a Babylonian religion. Since the Anti-Christ holds Babylon and Assyria he is rightfully called "King of Assyria" and "King of Babylon".
All Islamic nations have persecuted and killed Christians, the killing continues even now.
Revelation 20:4
"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the Beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."
Other than Islamic governments, no other modern movement, legal system or nation condones beheading as a form of punishment. The Shariah law, however, requires it for many specified offenses.
Originally posted by RJHindsThis is just plain stupid, Ron.
I speculate that if ISIS is the beginning of the revival of an Islamic Caliphate that is to be headed by the Mahdi, then once He overcomes Israel and sets up his rule in Jerusalem and demands allegiance over any god or idol. Then the harlot and most holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia where all Muslims go to worship, along with the New Economic City, will hav ...[text shortened]... displaying himself as being God. [/quote]
Don't forget that there are TWO branches of ISLAM. 😏
What you somehow fail to realize is that when the AntiChrist takes power, then Muslims will be hunted down and killed just like the Christians.
Good grief, get a clue.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBrilliant? Hardly so.
Identifying “Babylon the Great”
THE book of Revelation contains expressions that are not to be understood literally. (Revelation 1:1) For example, it mentions a woman with the name “Babylon the Great” written on her forehead. This woman is said to be sitting on “crowds and nations.” (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15) Since no literal woman could do this, Ba ...[text shortened]... God.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005161
Brilliant reasoning from the Brothers!
You're just another literalist. Just like all the other books in your Bible, Revelation in the NWT was written to prop up the dogma that your founders dreamed up well in advance of ever seeing the NWT. Most denominations at least develop their dogma from the Bible itself, but that's not good enough for you because that doesn't support your dream-vision of what you think the Bible is about and so you must develop your Bible from your already-decided dogma.
Go back to the drawing board, Robbie, but please, this time dream up something a bit more realistic.
I've never seen a denomination more painted into a corner by all of its past statements than yours. You draw a non-sequential reasoning from things that you wish other portions of the Bible meant. This drags down your interpretation of the Bible into a morass of wildly unlikely meanings and made up interpretations.
Revelation is admittedly a difficult book to wrap one's head around. It's even more difficult when you have no clue what the rest of the Bible really means.
Originally posted by SuzianneThe Muslims will be the ones with the mark of the beast headbands that are following orders to behead the Christians. Wake up.
This is just plain stupid, Ron.
What you somehow fail to realize is that when the AntiChrist takes power, then Muslims will be hunted down and killed just like the Christians.
Good grief, get a clue.
Originally posted by sonshipI'm sorry, but I'm finding it difficult to stay on point with our conversation because of all this sidetracking and bizarre viewpoints. Hopefully I'll be better able to focus by the weekend. The overtime at my job is also killing me this week.
Susanne,
Here is what I think it important concerning [b]"the mammon of unrighteousness". Jesus said use money wisely with consideration to the will of God.
[quote] " And I say to you, Make friends for yourselves by means of the mammon of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they may receive you into the eternal tabernacles." (Luke 16:9) ...[text shortened]... cy. And we need to live by another life, an overcoming life found in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by RJHindsYou're so besotted with your bigoted world view of Muslims. You're giving them and their religion way, way too much credit in the end time scenarios. Truth is, Muslims worship God, whom they call Allah, because the Arabic word for God is.... Allah. The AntiChrist is not God, but he will proclaim himself to be God, and will insist that everyone who does not submit and worship him will be killed. Therefore the AntiChrist will be beheading lots and lots of Muslims. And Jews. And Christians. The Muslims won't be running the show any more than the Christians will be. AGAIN, most of the world's Muslims will again be VICTIMS, not the agressors. Yes, there will be beheadings. This is written in scripture. But these beheadings will be by guillotine, not by axe or even scimitar. And even more Muslims than Christians will pay the guillotine's bloody price.
The Muslims will be the ones with the mark of the beast headbands that are following orders to behead the Christians. Wake up.
Originally posted by SuzianneYou have been asked countless times not only by me but my others to substantiate your claim and so far you have produced nothing. One suspects its simply another of your rather hollow assertions. The mere fact that you cannot even bring yourself to address the content is telling indeed. Brothers 1 Forces of darkness 0
Brilliant? Hardly so.
You're just another literalist. Just like all the other books in your Bible, Revelation in the NWT was written to prop up the dogma that your founders dreamed up well in advance of ever seeing the NWT. Most denominations at least develop their dogma from the Bible itself, but that's not good enough for you because that doesn't su ...[text shortened]... It's even more difficult when you have no clue what the rest of the Bible really means.
Originally posted by SuzianneWhile "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.
You're so besotted with your bigoted world view of Muslims. You're giving them and their religion way, way too much credit in the end time scenarios. Truth is, Muslims worship God, whom they call Allah, because the Arabic word for God is.... Allah. The AntiChrist is not God, but he will proclaim himself to be God, and will insist that everyone who does n ...[text shortened]... or even scimitar. And even more Muslims than Christians will pay the guillotine's bloody price.
The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".
"Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town.
Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.
To worship their Allah today:
• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.
• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).
• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.
* The crescent moon identifies their mosques.
Akhenaton made the male sun-god the one and only god of Egypt, while Muhammad made the male moon-god the one and only god of the Arabs. Neither god remotely resembled the God of the Bible, both being pagan deities borrowed from polytheistic religions.
According to the religious historian Mircea Eliade, the Temple of Artemis (Diana) at Ephesus contained a squat statue of the mother-goddess, carved from a meteorite that fell from Jupiter (Acts 19:26-35).
The most famous of all of the stone fetishes of Arabia was, of course, the black stone in the sanctuary of Mecca. The Kabah was, and still is, a rectangular stone structure. Built into its Eastern corner is the black stone which had been an object of worship for many centuries before Muhammad appropriated the Kabah for his new religion, and made the pilgrimage to this holy place one of the pillars of Islam. Muslims touch and kiss the black stone during Hajj.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
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Originally posted by RJHindsI agree that this is the embodiment of the old false Babylonian religious system brought into the modern age. However, spiritually speaking, the symbolic woman that is named "Babylon the Great" is said to be a "Harlot" that commits fornication with the kings of the earth and is figurative of religious idolatry.
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What is not understood here is that blatant idolatry of the pagan religions has NOTHING to do with Christ. But the idolatry of the Roman Cathoiic church and some of her daughters is insidiously mixed up with things of God and Christ.
No one can deny that the RCC has something of the truth of the God very much with her doctrines. The golden cup that the Harlot holds in her hands means that there is a mixture of that which is genuinely of God WITH a corrupting element.
The idolatry of pure moon worship is not as insidiously a dilution of truth with idolatry. Though it is idolatry it is not idolatry within a "Christian" container, so to speak.
It was once thought by practically all Protestant Christians that this could only be speaking of the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican City with its Papacy.
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It was not only thought so by Protestant denominations. It has been said by at least a Roman Catholic theologian, that I remember.
The reason why many denominational resist saying so now, I believe, is because they do not want to see that their denominations are "daughters" of the Mother of Harlots. If we see ourselves as only being a part of the solution then we refuse to see that we could be part of the problem also.
Notice how much effort you put into re-interpreting the "daughters" .
However, I don't mind the seeing that I could be involved in part of the problem. I don't like it. But I prefer to have the truth. And as Christians we should endevour to be led by the Holy Spirit out of any corrupting influences that still cling to us from the Reformation.
The Reformation was only a beginning of recovery back to the proper standing and practice of the church. It was incomplete. God is still moving to recover the church. there is still recovery to be done. He far from finished recovering the church from damage with the Reformation out from the Roman Catholic Church.
Many who think the recovery of God as concluded centuries ago cannot take it that Protestant denominations and other free independent Christians groups could still carry over some of the spiritual fornication of the Mother.
My reaction is different from yours. You react by wanting to wrap the whole matter of Babylon around Islam. My reaction is to seek God's mercy that I would not be involved in any of the "daughters" of the Mother and the pure Gospel, undiluted, would be the church life I experience.
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Today, Islam's holy Mecca city with its Kaaba Stone idol, where Muslims from around the world come to bow down in worship, seems more likely to many of us.
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We know that is a huge matter of idolatry. But its subtly is not as insidious as that idolatry which has boasted of close ties to Jesus Christ. In other words, that idolatry is touting itself as the Wife of Christ.
The idolatry of Christiandom is a mixture of the pagan with the things of the Bible. The idol of the meteor which became the Kaaba Stone is a cup not of gold. The idolatry of the Roman Catholic Church and to a great extent her daughters, is the golden cup filled with idolatry and abominations.
The idolatry of Mecca is indeed very serious.
But I am sure that the idolatry signified by the golden cup in the hand of the Harlot which is full of abominations is the more insidious "Christianized" idolatry.
Mary worship, oraying to dead saints, relics and adoring the bones of past popes, Peter being the first pope, etc. these things reveal the so-called Church of Christ assimilating the world's idolatry and "Christianizing" it.
It is very hard for the Lord's people to full remove this leaven from the fine flour of the pure word of God. And you will see that this very Christmas season the befuddlement and stupor of this mixture is very deeply embedded in Christianity and in the western world particularly.
Of course the beheading of Christians by Moslems is a terrible affront to truth.
But Islam does not claim to be the Wife of Christ.
The contrast between the Harlot in 17 and the Bride in 19 must be seen.
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Following chapters 17, 18 is Revelation 19 where the overcomers as Christ's Bride has prepared herself. She victoriously rides with Jesus to accompany Him to Armageddon.
We have to grasp the contrast between the Harlot in chapter 17 with the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb in chapter 19. The contrast is intentional.
...The Reformation was only a partial recovery. Those Christians how tend to think God came to rest at the end of the coming out of denominations from the RCC may not see that God's recovery did not come to an end with the recovery of Justification by Faith.
Understandably, some Christians thinking that the Reformation was a completion of recovery may be suspicious that Protestant denominations be seen as part of the problem of a deformed Christianity. They would look elsewhere for the negative symbols' meaning. And Islam today is a strong candidate.
Everything you protested about "daughters" possibly being Protestant denominations and free independend groups of Christianity, is probably because of not realizing God people still need their spiritual beings to "Come Out" of the degraded captivity of fallen Christiandom.
None of what I have written is an OK expressed about the beheading of Christians by Moslem fanatics. The need of the Moslem world is the purest expression of the Gospel of Christ by Christians living in the most recovered state
Originally posted by sonshipAlthough I have never been a big fan of the Roman Catholic Church, there is nothing in Revelation about the Church having daughters. It is clear to me that false teachers have entered in and drawm many away from the faith that was first delivered by the apostles as predicted by Jesus and the apostles. For example:
[b] I agree that this is the embodiment of the old false Babylonian religious system brought into the modern age. However, spiritually speaking, the symbolic woman that is named "Babylon the Great" is said to be a "Harlot" that commits fornication with the kings of the earth and is figurative of religious idolatry.
------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... hters" of the Mother and the pure Gospel, undiluted, would be the church life I experience.
.[/b]
Acts 20:29-30 Apostle Paul,
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4 Apostle Paul,
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in God, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ.
The Great Apostasy, according to some religious groups, is the perceived fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially the Roman Catholic Church, because it allegedly allowed traditional Greco-Roman culture (i.e.Greco-Roman mysteries, deities of solar monism such as Mithras and Sol Invictus, and idol worship) into the church.
To a large degree, Protestantism believes that Constantine the Great (c. 325 AD) merged paganism with Christianity, seeking to bring unity and stability under his rule, and advance acceptance of and the power of the church by all sectors of the empire.
Many Protestant reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Thomas, John Knox, and Cotton Mather, felt the early church had been led into apostasy by the Papacy and identified it as the Antichrist.
Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church contend that they are still in harmony with the teachings and practices Jesus gave the Apostles, and that Jesus' promise has been fulfilled: "On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." And elsewhere, "I will be with you until the end of the age."
2 Thess. 2:3-4 Apostle Paul,
"Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God" points to the Great Apostasy happening in the time of anti-Christ (during endtime events).
Both the Catholic and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches put forward claims to apostolic succession, and claim to be the only Christian church that has remained since its establishment by Christ and His Apostles. Although the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches see corruption of doctrine and authority in the Catholic Church and in each other, just as Protestants do, they view Protestantism as essentially "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", ultimately separating themselves from the Truth to a far larger degree than has the Catholic Church.
The Greek Orthodox Church survived roughly 400 years under the Muslim Ottoman Empire, preserving its faith when it would have been socially advantageous to convert to Islam. More recently, in the 20th century, the Russian Orthodox Church survived over 70 years of persecution under Communism, while Christians in many Muslim countries continue to refuse assimilation, in places including Egypt, Palestine, Turkey, and Iraq. Therefore, it would be more correct to say that there have been times when the State has seen that it was to its advantage to cooperate with the Church and to adjust accordingly, than to advocate the opposite position. More importantly, there is a consistency in Christian teaching, beginning with the persecuted church of its first few centuries, to the more established state church of the Roman Empire, to the again persecuted church of the various Muslim and communist regimes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Apostasy