Originally posted by knightmeisterFreaky had presented that presumably as an example of Jesus granting cheap salvation. The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. All attempts to do so are conjecture.
And of course the big question is: does getting into heaven have anything to do with your worthiness as a person?
--whitey-----------
I started the thread because it seemed reasonably clear that the thief does not meet what ToOne claims are the only standards by which salvation or eternal life can be attained.
I'm interested in why ToOne thinks ...[text shortened]... . If he clothes an unworthy man with his own worthiness then that's his right to do so.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus has the ability to read hearts and knew the thiefs heart was good. But even if Jesus hadn't said that to the thief, he knew he would be resurrected anyway in the future.
Freaky had presented that presumably as an example of Jesus granting cheap salvation. The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. All attempts to do so are conjecture.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAs I said earlier and as ToOne rightly points out too, we know next to nothing about the man and the reasoning behind his apparent acceptance into heaven.
I started the thread because it seemed reasonably clear that the thief does not meet what ToOne claims are the only standards by which salvation or eternal life can be attained.
I'm interested in why ToOne thinks that the thief is worthy of eternal life when he doesn't seemed to have lived a righteous life and certainly sounds like he feels a bit guilty about his life.
Rather than using him as evidence or proof of something, why not discuss your own views or suggest various alternative scenarios?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. All attempts to do so are conjecture.
Freaky had presented that presumably as an example of Jesus granting cheap salvation. The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. All attempts to do so are conjecture.
=========ToOne=================
But that doesn't really matter because what we do know is not conjecture.
We know two facts......
a) Jesus said the thief was granted salvation
b) All the thief had to do was to honestly admit he deserved punishment and ask Jesus to remember him.
All the evidence suggests that the thief had not walked the walk , and he himself felt he deserved to be punished.
You are just trying to talk your way out of a sticky wicket because you realise that this thief does not seem to fit the standard for eternal life and so it must confuse you that Jesus did this.
You seemed happy to throw "conjecture" at the story by suggesting that the thief might have had a change of heart between being caught and being executed. But the problem would still remain , even if you were right , Jesus would have been granting salvation on the basis of a last minute display of humility and a belief that Jesus "remembering him" might make a difference.
Surely then it follows that any man who humbly comes to Jesus in humility and believes that he doesn't deserve by rights to have eternal life (like the thief) , then asks Jesus to remember him can be , in theory , saved , there and then. The thief didn't have to walk the walk , all that Jesus presumably needed to know was that in his heart the thief would have lived a righteous life if he had lived. But Jesus didn't have to see the walk to know the man's heart. He just saw his faith and his humility.
Originally posted by twhiteheadAs I said earlier and as ToOne rightly points out too, we know next to nothing about the man and the reasoning behind his apparent acceptance into heaven.
As I said earlier and as ToOne rightly points out too, we know next to nothing about the man and the reasoning behind his apparent acceptance into heaven.
Rather than using him as evidence or proof of something, why not discuss your own views or suggest various alternative scenarios?
---------Whitey-------------------------
We know he was a thief and therefore not living a righteous life in Jesus's eyes.
We know that he didn't ask for salvation on the basis of his own righteousness.
We know that he felt that Jesus "remembering him" was important.
We know that Jesus granted him salvation and said he would be saved.
What Jesus should have said was " look mate , you have not been righteous and you admit yourself that you deserve to be punished , so tough , you reap what you sow. It's all very well pleading for your soul on this cross at the last minute now you have been caught and all that , but you should have thought about that when you were out nicking stuff. You chose your path and you did not walk the path of righteousness. Now shut up and stop whinging , it's your bed , you lie in it. "
Forget what we don't know - what we DO know is enough to blast a serious hole into ToOne's flagship.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterTry reading the following very slowly until you comprehend it:
The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. All attempts to do so are conjecture.
=========ToOne=================
But that doesn't really matter because what we do know is not conjecture.
We know two facts......
a) Jesus said the thief was granted salvation
b) All the thief had t t have to see the walk to know the man's heart. He just saw his faith and his humility.
The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. All attempts to do so are conjecture.
Given your track record, I imagine you'll be reading a very, very, very, very long time.
The fact remains that "Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment."
All you've done is given your own explanation.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Try reading the following very slowly until you comprehend it:The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. [b]All attempts to do so are conjecture.
Given your track record, I imagine you'll be reading a very, very, very, very long time.[/b]It's not relevant what Jesus's motives were. It would be nice to know , but for the point I am making it doesn't matter.
Why?
Because we do know that Jesus grants salvation and we know that it cannot be because the thief meets his standards for righteousness.
The thief HAS NOT walked the walk. He HAS NOT lived a righteous life. All he did was talk to Jesus and admitted he wasn't that great a person.
The rest is a simple matter of a logical process of elimination.
You keep focussing on what we don't know , but what we do know is enough.
What we do know tells us that in this case this man was able to be saved without doing any particular good works or particularly living as Jesus had commanded.
Therefore , we know that it must have been something to do with the condition of his heart ( ie humble acceptance of his unrighteousness) and some kind of pardon or granting from Jesus.
But one thing we know for certain , this thief did not have much in the way of good works to offer NOR evidence of a righteous life. The only evidence we have strongly suggests that this was a desperate man pleading for his soul. It's also logical to think that if he was that righteous and humble he would have stopped thieving before he even got caught , rather than waiting until he was in a pickle before showing some humility.
Even so , God's grace saved him.
He didn't fit your criteria for eternal life. He reflected on his life and his own predicament and accepted he deserved to be on that cross. No righteous man would say that. He should have said that it was unfair he was on the cross.
I don't think you have any answer to this other than to come out with your feeble "conjecture" routine.
You would no doubt prefer that this awkward little story just wasn't in there.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterSomehow your exceedingly low powers of reason never cease to amaze me.
It's not relevant what Jesus's motives were. It would be nice to know , but for the point I am making it doesn't matter.
Why?
Because we do know that Jesus grants salvation and we know that it cannot be because the thief meets his standards for righteousness.
The thief HAS NOT walked the walk. He HAS NOT lived a righteous life. All he did w e.
You would no doubt prefer that this awkward little story just wasn't in there.
You don't know the motivation of Jesus.
You don't know the criteria Jesus used for His judgment.
You don't even know what Jesus knew about the thief.
And yet you are confident you know why Jesus granted the thief salvation.
Seriously, think about these things.
Originally posted by galveston75Astounding. In fact, Jesus need not come at all because his heart was "good"?
Jesus has the ability to read hearts and knew the thiefs heart was good. But even if Jesus hadn't said that to the thief, he knew he would be resurrected anyway in the future.
Originally posted by whodeyTry reading my OP again.
And you do?
Freaky had presented that presumably as an example of Jesus granting cheap salvation. The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. All attempts to do so are conjecture.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne[/b]Well lets try further "conjecture", shall we? In a myriad of examples in the gospels, Jesus heals and then turns to them and says, "Your faith has saved you". and went around telling them that their sins had been forgiven them. Of course, people like TOo would have thought this to be blasphamous, as did the Jews during Christs day, because only God can forgive mankind their sins.
Try reading my OP again.Freaky had presented that presumably as an example of Jesus granting cheap salvation. The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. [b]All attempts to do so are conjecture.
Originally posted by galveston75No.
So if I just say that I'm saved?
Are you ignorant?
When the scripture speaks of "calling on the name of the Lord" one must read and understand that in the context of the whole.
When one calls on the Lord it is because they have believed the gospel which teaches us that God has sent His Son to pay our sin's debt on the cross.
Believe that Jesus died for you and call on His name and you will be saved.
That's all one can do to be saved.