1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    05 Feb '10 00:53
    Was the thief on the cross with Jesus righteous? If so why?

    Jesus said he attained salvation so it might be quite important to figure this one out folks.

    What was Jesus's righteous standard here?
  2. Joined
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    05 Feb '10 01:56
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Was the thief on the cross with Jesus righteous? If so why?

    Jesus said he attained salvation so it might be quite important to figure this one out folks.

    What was Jesus's righteous standard here?
    And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    That's all it took.
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    05 Feb '10 03:03
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Was the thief on the cross with Jesus righteous? If so why?

    Jesus said he attained salvation so it might be quite important to figure this one out folks.

    What was Jesus's righteous standard here?
    He might've been stealing bread to feed his family?
  4. Joined
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    05 Feb '10 03:21
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    He might've been stealing bread to feed his family?
    He got caught and his family starved! 🙄
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    05 Feb '10 06:36
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Was the thief on the cross with Jesus righteous? If so why?

    Jesus said he attained salvation so it might be quite important to figure this one out folks.

    What was Jesus's righteous standard here?
    Jesus was the criminal here. He got a death sentence, didn't he?
  6. Cape Town
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    05 Feb '10 08:32
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Was the thief on the cross with Jesus righteous? If so why?

    Jesus said he attained salvation so it might be quite important to figure this one out folks.

    What was Jesus's righteous standard here?
    You know next to nothing about him.
    Was he guilty as charged?
    Was it a major crime?
    What else did he do in his life?

    Does stealing rule out salvation? If I stole something from my sister when I was four, would it rule out salvation for me?
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    05 Feb '10 09:261 edit
    The thief was justified unto salvation because of his faith.

    Before he was justified he (the thief) justified Jesus Christ. He recognized that Jesus was righteous. Previously he may have thought against Jesus. He may have thought that God was wrong.

    Previously he may have condemned God as not fair, unfair, not right, wrong, not just, etc. etc. Perhaps he was a thief because of his rationalizations that God was unrighteous, unfair, wrong, and that he should not be poor and have to steal.

    Sometime on the cross as he observed Jesus he had a total change in his heart. He realized that God was not wrong or unrighteous. He realized something also about the righteousness of the man Jesus and that He was Godly and deserved the vindication of a kingdom.

    The thief first justified God as righteous. He justified Christ. He thought in his heart "I have no problem anymore with God. God is right afterall."

    Then he was justified by God. He was justified by Christ because of his faith in Christ. The thief just received a revelation that Christ was just and of God. And he was justified in his faith unto eternal redemption.
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    05 Feb '10 12:08
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You know next to nothing about him.
    Was he guilty as charged?
    Was it a major crime?
    What else did he do in his life?

    Does stealing rule out salvation? If I stole something from my sister when I was four, would it rule out salvation for me?
    What we do know is that he felt he deserved his punishment.
  9. Cape Town
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    05 Feb '10 12:241 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    What we do know is that he felt he deserved his punishment.
    This whole judgment thing has so many problems.
    1. jaywill judges him based on his final thoughts before death.
    2. Others will judge him based on his last act in life before getting caught (theft).
    3. Others (as you suggest) may judge him based on what he himself believed he deserved.

    So what do you think God uses? What do you think God should use?
    Why am I the only one who seems to think that a persons worth is more than one or two acts but rather the sum total of their life?

    And of course the big question is: does getting into heaven have anything to do with your worthiness as a person?
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    05 Feb '10 12:331 edit
    It is not complicated.

    It is just that we can discuss it from many different angles.

    Basically the sinner's justification is Christ Himself.
  11. Territories Unknown
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    05 Feb '10 14:51
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    This whole judgment thing has so many problems.
    1. jaywill judges him based on his final thoughts before death.
    2. Others will judge him based on his last act in life before getting caught (theft).
    3. Others (as you suggest) may judge him based on what he himself believed he deserved.

    So what do you think God uses? What do you think God should use? ...[text shortened]... big question is: does getting into heaven have anything to do with your worthiness as a person?
    This whole judgment thing has so many problems.
    It's how we get through life, though. Can't even take a step without some form of it.

    So what do you think God uses? What do you think God should use?
    His judgments are based upon two things: the standard of His character and everything else in comparison to it.

    Why am I the only one who seems to think that a persons worth is more than one or two acts but rather the sum total of their life?
    You're not. In fact, your view is the majority and natural/default position. However, while the first part of your view is correct, the latter part is what distinguishes it from God's position on the matter... or, at least, as it relates to salvation. God's actions toward man are on the basis of His character, not on the basis of man's merits (or lack thereof).

    Your sense that there ought to be a judgment based upon all action a person commits over the course of their lives is nearly part and parcel how the Bible describes the final judgment. While all believers will face an examination of their lives, this judgment of work is done expressly for an assessment of reward. The other judgment which occurs for unbelievers is a thorough examination of their entire lives, good and bad. In the final evaluation, they are assigned a value based upon the sum total of their lives' work with a particular value for their righteousness. Some will obviously score higher than others, but no matter how high the score, the end result for every single one of these people is 'not enough,' meaning, not enough righteousness to be compatible with the measure of God's perfection.

    And of course the big question is: does getting into heaven have anything to do with your worthiness as a person?
    As the term is being used, the answer is no. However, if one considers that we are made worthy by Him, then the answer is yes.
  12. England
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    05 Feb '10 15:31
    Originally posted by josephw
    He got caught and his family starved! 🙄
    got caught, had his legs broken, did not die, maybe ended up a forgiven begger
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    05 Feb '10 16:18
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Was the thief on the cross with Jesus righteous? If so why?

    Jesus said he attained salvation so it might be quite important to figure this one out folks.

    What was Jesus's righteous standard here?
    It is equally important to note a couple of things: 1) The four Gospels give very interesting and different details of Jesus' crucifixion; you will find the very core of each writer's agenda here, and 2) This passage is only in Luke. This tells a great deal of the vision of Jesus that Luke has, not only here but in his entire Gospel.
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    05 Feb '10 16:30
    Originally posted by josephw
    And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    That's all it took.
    So just saying that did it or did Jesus read the man's heart condition?
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    05 Feb '10 18:27
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    This whole judgment thing has so many problems.
    1. jaywill judges him based on his final thoughts before death.
    2. Others will judge him based on his last act in life before getting caught (theft).
    3. Others (as you suggest) may judge him based on what he himself believed he deserved.

    So what do you think God uses? What do you think God should use? ...[text shortened]... big question is: does getting into heaven have anything to do with your worthiness as a person?
    And of course the big question is: does getting into heaven have anything to do with your worthiness as a person?
    --whitey-----------

    I started the thread because it seemed reasonably clear that the thief does not meet what ToOne claims are the only standards by which salvation or eternal life can be attained.

    I'm interested in why ToOne thinks that the thief is worthy of eternal life when he doesn't seemed to have lived a righteous life and certainly sounds like he feels a bit guilty about his life.

    ToOne maintains that thief may have undergone a "transformation" between being caught and being executed. If this is true then why did the thief reach out to Jesus in faith to help him. He certainly didn't sound as if he felt that he was worthy of heaven.

    The message of this story is that eternal life is God's to dish out and that's the end of it. If he chooses to save a sinner on the basis of faith in Christ it doesn't matter what we think about that. If he clothes an unworthy man with his own worthiness then that's his right to do so.
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