righteous thief?

Originally posted by galveston75
So as your saying the end has not come yet according to those signs. So how are you saved NOW as the fulfillment of that scripture is not complete?

You either didn't read my post, or you don't understand a thing I'm saying.

Or both.

Do you know how a person gets saved? Biblically speaking?

Originally posted by josephw
Ok galveston. I'll address your first question.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Consider the context. Matthew 24:3-13

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the ...[text shortened]... ce. I kept it as simple as I could, but there is much much more to it than meets the eye.

This discourse is not about the end of the age prior to Jesus' second coming.

The context of this passage has nothing to do with succumbing to false prophets and the like.

To claim as such is not to clarify the context and exegesis of this passage; it is to misunderstand it.

These are Jews that are talking amongst themselves, with gospel witnesses that are also written in the time that Jesus was a radical Jewish expression. The concern here is not of the second coming, because that is not what the reader of 2,000 years ago is worried about. It's more about the uncertainty aroused by the destruction of the temple.

It is written for the audience of its time, not for us in 2010.

Originally posted by Badwater
This discourse is not about the end of the age prior to Jesus' second coming.

The context of this passage has nothing to do with succumbing to false prophets and the like.

To claim as such is not to clarify the context and exegesis of this passage; it is to misunderstand it.

These are Jews that are talking amongst themselves, with gospel witnesses ...[text shortened]... destruction of the temple.

It is written for the audience of its time, not for us in 2010.

Read it again.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It's plain to see that this is the set up for what follows.

Originally posted by josephw
Read it again.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It's plain to see that this is the set up for what follows.

I've read it before and what I posted is still accurate.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Somehow your exceedingly low powers of reason never cease to amaze me.

You don't know the motivation of Jesus.

You don't know the criteria Jesus used for His judgment.

You don't even know what Jesus knew about the thief.

And yet you are confident you know why Jesus granted the thief salvation.

Seriously, think about these things.

Why are you choosing to be such an idiot?

It's like you have never heard of the principle of the process of elimination. We don't need to know what Jesus's motivation was for saving the thief as long as we know that it wasn't because he had lived a righteous life performing works according to the Law.

That fact alone is enough.

It's beside the point but, for the record, I am confident that Jesus granted the thief salvation on the basis of his humble admission of his unworthiness and his faith that despite this Jesus could still save him.

But this is not the point. The point is that it's very hard to see how the thief fits into YOUR model of salvation because the thief has not walked the walk of righteousness.

How do we know this? Because he admits it himself. He SAYS he is unworthy.

Presumably a righteous man who fits the highest standards of goodness and is free of sin would be able to realise that what was happening to him was highly unjust and he would not feel he deserved the punishment at all.

He would just look Jesus in the eye and say " you know , what's happening to us is really, really unfair - never mind see you in heaven"

As usual you blind yourself to a truth that is right in front of you. You see what you choose to see.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Try reading the following very slowly until you comprehend it:

The reality is that Jesus does not give His motivation or explain the criteria used for His judgment. [b]All attempts to do so are conjecture.

Given your track record, I imagine you'll be reading a very, very, very, very long time.

The fact remains that "Jesus does no ...[text shortened]... plain the criteria used for His judgment."

All you've done is given your own explanation.[/b]

All you've done is given your own explanation.
---------ToOne----------------------

No , I gave a series of facts that we can logically and reasonably extrapolate from the story presented to us.

You did not directly challenge one of those facts listed.


Interesting.........................

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Speaking of not answering questions, I believe you ignored 2 questions on the "God manifesting himself" thread. One from me and one from Twitehead. Or are you just going with RC's answer? (to Twitheads question. No answer to mine)

I try to answer all questions. If I don't it's because I've missed it or the subject doesn't warrent a responce.

Originally posted by galveston75
I try to answer all questions. If I don't it's because I've missed it or the subject doesn't warrent a responce.

Ok, well next time you might have to say "it doesn't warrant a response",(to me at least), so I know your not just avoiding.Sorry to get pedantic , but I usually only level a charge against someone if they've been guilty of the same charge themselves. Fair enough?

Originally posted by Badwater
I've read it before and what I posted is still accurate.

Read it again.

Originally posted by josephw
Read it again.

Same result. Thank you for playing; you don't get a copy of our home game.

Originally posted by Badwater
This discourse is not about the end of the age prior to Jesus' second coming.

The context of this passage has nothing to do with succumbing to false prophets and the like.

To claim as such is not to clarify the context and exegesis of this passage; it is to misunderstand it.

These are Jews that are talking amongst themselves, with gospel witnesses ...[text shortened]... destruction of the temple.

It is written for the audience of its time, not for us in 2010.

======================================
This discourse is not about the end of the age prior to Jesus' second coming.
======================================

The discourse is about the signs preceeding the coming of coming of Christ to consummate the age.

"Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?" Matt. 24:3b)

You have to work pretty hard to not notice that.

=======================================
The context of this passage has nothing to do with succumbing to false prophets and the like.
========================================

Again, you have to be willingling blind to not notice that warnings of false Christs and false prophets are an integral part of Christ's answer to the questions in verse 3.

"And Jesus answered and said to them, See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ,and they will lead many astray... And many false prophetswill arise and will lead many astray." (vs.4,5,11)

===============================
To claim as such is not to clarify the context and exegesis of this passage; it is to misunderstand it.
=============================

Someone was bluffing you. Don't repeat the error.


==============================
These are Jews that are talking amongst themselves,
================================

That does not in any way mean that Christ is not teaching about the signs of His coming to comsummate the age OR of His warning of false Christs and false prophets.

So part of chapter 24 has a decidedly Jewish context to it. So what ??
The first Christians were Jews. The intial church life in Jerusalem was filled with Jews.

======================================
with gospel witnesses that are also written in the time that Jesus was a radical Jewish expression. The concern here is not of the second coming, because that is not what the reader of 2,000 years ago is worried about. It's more about the uncertainty aroused by the destruction of the temple.

It is written for the audience of its time, not for us in 2010.
======================================

Everything up to verse 31 does have a Jewish context. After verse 31 the context is widened to include all Christian believers and what they should do to be ready for Christ's coming.

In a parellel record in Luke Jesus warns that difficult days are coming in which they will long to see the days of the Son of Man (His second coming) - "And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it." (Luke 17:22)

The implication is that certainly very trying times will occur at any time before the coming of the Son of Man to close the age. There is no reason to suspect that the only trials for Israel or for the Christian church can only be associated with the second coming. The distruction of Jerusalem and the temple under the Roman general Titus qualifies to be one of these intervening troublesome eras.

Jesus says in Mark 13:37 "What I say to you I say to all: Watch!"

And the teaching that forms the context of His word to "all" is generally the same as the teaching of the prudent and watchful servant of Matt. 24:45-51.

Christians should therefore be wary of false Christs, false prophets, and false claims that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the second coming of the Son of Man to consummate the age.

======================================
This discourse is not about the end of the age prior to Jesus' second coming.
======================================

The discourse is about the signs preceeding the coming of coming of Christ to consummate the age.

"Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?" Matt. 24:3b)

You have to work pretty hard to not notice that.

=======================================
The context of this passage has nothing to do with succumbing to false prophets and the like.
========================================

Again, you have to be willingling blind to not notice that warnings of false Christs and false prophets are an integral part of Christ's answer to the questions in verse 3.

"And Jesus answered and said to them, See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ,and they will lead many astray... And many false prophetswill arise and will lead many astray." (vs.4,5,11)

===============================
To claim as such is not to clarify the context and exegesis of this passage; it is to misunderstand it.
=============================

Someone was bluffing you. Don't repeat the error.


==============================
These are Jews that are talking amongst themselves,
================================

That does not in any way mean that Christ is not teaching about the signs of His coming to comsummate the age OR of His warning of false Christs and false prophets.

So part of chapter 24 has a decidedly Jewish context to it. So what ??
The first Christians were Jews. The intial church life in Jerusalem was filled with Jews.

======================================
with gospel witnesses that are also written in the time that Jesus was a radical Jewish expression. The concern here is not of the second coming, because that is not what the reader of 2,000 years ago is worried about. It's more about the uncertainty aroused by the destruction of the temple.

It is written for the audience of its time, not for us in 2010.
======================================

Everything up to verse 31 does have a Jewish context. After verse 31 the context is widened to include all Christian believers and what they should do to be ready for Christ's coming.

In a parellel record in Luke Jesus warns that difficult days are coming in which they will long to see the days of the Son of Man (His second coming) - "And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it." (Luke 17:22)

The implication is that certainly very trying times will occur at any time before the coming of the Son of Man to close the age. There is no reason to suspect that the only trials for Israel or for the Christian church can only be associated with the second coming. The distruction of Jerusalem and the temple under the Roman general Titus qualifies to be one of these intervening troublesome eras.

Jesus says in Mark 13:37 "What I say to you I say to all: Watch!"

And the teaching that forms the context of His word to "all" is generally the same as the teaching of the prudent and watchful servant of Matt. 24:45-51.

Christians should therefore be wary of false Christs, false prophets, and false claims that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the second coming of the Son of Man to consummate the age.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why are you choosing to be such an idiot?

It's like you have never heard of the principle of the process of elimination. We don't need to know what Jesus's motivation was for saving the thief as long as we know that it wasn't because he had lived a righteous life performing works according to the Law.

That fact alone is enough.

It's beside lind yourself to a truth that is right in front of you. You see what you choose to see.

======================================
This discourse is not about the end of the age prior to Jesus' second coming.
======================================

The discourse is about the signs preceeding the coming of Christ to consummate the age.

"Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?" Matt. 24:3b)

You have to work pretty hard to not notice that.

=======================================
The context of this passage has nothing to do with succumbing to false prophets and the like.
========================================

Again, you have to be willingling blind to not notice that warnings of false Christs and false prophets are an integral part of Christ's answer to the questions in verse 3.

"And Jesus answered and said to them, See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ,and they will lead many astray... And many false prophetswill arise and will lead many astray." (vs.4,5,11)

===============================
To claim as such is not to clarify the context and exegesis of this passage; it is to misunderstand it.
=============================

Someone was bluffing you. Don't repeat the error.


==============================
These are Jews that are talking amongst themselves,
================================

That does not in any way mean that Christ is not teaching about the signs of His coming to comsummate the age OR of His warning of false Christs and false prophets.

So part of chapter 24 has a decidedly Jewish context to it. So what ??
The first Christians were Jews. The intial church life in Jerusalem was filled with Jews.

======================================
with gospel witnesses that are also written in the time that Jesus was a radical Jewish expression. The concern here is not of the second coming, because that is not what the reader of 2,000 years ago is worried about. It's more about the uncertainty aroused by the destruction of the temple.

It is written for the audience of its time, not for us in 2010.
======================================

Everything up to verse 31 does have a Jewish context. After verse 31 the context is widened to include all Christian believers and what they should do to be ready for Christ's coming.

In a parellel record in Luke Jesus warns that difficult days are coming in which they will long to see the days of the Son of Man (His second coming) - "And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it." (Luke 17:22)

The implication is that certainly very trying times will occur at any time before the coming of the Son of Man to close the age. There is no reason to suspect that the only trials for Israel or for the Christian church must only be associated with the second coming. The distruction of Jerusalem and the temple under the Roman general Titus qualifies to be one of these intervening troublesome eras.

Jesus says in Mark 13:37 "What I say to you I say to all: Watch!"

And the teaching that forms the context of His word to "all" is generally the same as the teaching of the prudent and watchful servant of Matt. 24:45-51.

Christians should therefore be wary of false Christs, false prophets, and false claims that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the second coming of the Son of Man to consummate the age.

[/b]