1. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    11 Dec '09 20:24
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===============================
    First, Jaywill, I have always respected your willingness (with the exception of some crucial aspects of Christian doctrine; and I understand that) to non-dogmatically explore various possibilities—including in your own exegesis.
    ================================


    Thanks for the information about the modern zohar ...[text shortened]... ? That doesn't sound like me.

    Do you think that "dogma" can be correct sometimes ?[/b]
    Well, I guess I didn’t express myself well! 🙁


    Dogma, of course, can simply refer to an “authoritative” doctrine (e.g., of the church)—and might certainly be true. The word dogmatic, in this case means something different from the modern, generally pejorative sense.


    Yes, you always give reasons. But I was thinking back to your comments on my lengthy exegesis of Second Isaiah about a year back. Ultimately, your position (I don’t recall your exact words) was that, as a Christian, you have to rely on the authority of the NT as you reflect on such texts from the Tanach. That is absolutely understandable and valid. From a Christian perspective, that authority of the NT is hardly “up for grabs”—it is, in a sense, defining. (And that, however one interprets the NT itself.) And I think you explained yourself (gave your reasons) clearly.


    So, that is all I meant: that there are such defining aspects of being Christian that you cannot eschew without ceasing to be Christian. I wish I had made myself more clear, since nothing was intended as a criticism.

    Be well.
  2. Unknown Territories
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    11 Dec '09 22:21
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I'm afraid to inform you that you (and that group which finds itself in agreement with you) are mistaken.
    isn't humility supposed to be a trademark of the christian? how do you presume to know more than the majority of the scientific comunity? how can you be so sure? don't say that the bible says so because it is not logical to assume a book that deals ...[text shortened]... f the OT in the same shoes as the loving compassionate god of the NT.
    kind of a stretch.[/b]
    isn't humility supposed to be a trademark of the christian?
    What this has to do with the topic at hand is beyond me. Sounds like you're attempting to change the subject for no real reason. In my humble opinion, of course.

    how do you presume to know more than the majority of the scientific comunity?
    After careful, painstaking analysis of the data, I concluded that that vocal portion of used-to-be-scientists-and-now-they're-evolutionary-evangelists were presuming to speak on behalf of all scientists everywhere were, in fact, politicizing a field which had previously prided itself in its objectivity.

    Truly, the question ought to be: "how does anyone presume to know more than the Bible?"

    does the fact that God stopped the sun in the sky in one of joshua's battles to make the day longer mean that the sun is revolving around the earth?
    I dunno. You tell me what time sunrise took place today in your neck of the world, and then we can get somewhere with that non-point. Does the fact that we today still refer to the sun rising and setting mean the sun is revolving around us? You gotta ask yourself: why, today--- nearly half a millennium since we figured out the earth is not the center of its own solar system--- do we still refer to just the opposite.

    don't say that the bible says so because it is not logical to assume a book that deals with the spiritual would put so much stock in a scientific issue told to nomadic shepherds from the second millenia BC.
    While we're on the subject, your statement here makes no logical sense. That a exceedingly small portion of the Bible's narrative dealt with shepherds does not preclude either part or whole of the Bible's scientific soundness.

    What wouldn't make logical sense (thinking from a position that logic is the standard of thinking, which it is decidedly not) would be to give any source a pass when it comes to its perception of reality, if that same source has been shown to be in error consistently and/or repeatedly. As the Bible has not been proven wanting, despite being subjected to myriad tests throughout this and the last century, no one needs to simply fall back on an unsupported 'because the Bible says so.' Why? Because the Bible stands on its own, against all comers. Crazy, huh.

    just because your point includes mine doesn't mean your point is correct and mine is wrong.
    What was my point that makes such a statement even necessary?

    your understanding puts the murderous, jealous, genocidal, hateful, ridiculous "God" of the OT in the same shoes as the loving compassionate god of the NT.
    kind of a stretch.

    Seriously? Newsflash, friend: God doesn't wear shoes. Sheesh.
  3. Standard membergalveston75
    Texasman
    San Antonio Texas
    Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    78698
    11 Dec '09 23:14
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Science does not say there's no God. You're throwing out a Strawman.

    There is simply no evidence that there is a God. If he exists, he's hiding (unless he sends telepathic messages to individual people somehow and we can't detect it).
    The last I heard is that God is a spirit..so he'd be a little hard to see.
  4. Joined
    04 Feb '05
    Moves
    29132
    12 Dec '09 08:42
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]isn't humility supposed to be a trademark of the christian?
    What this has to do with the topic at hand is beyond me. Sounds like you're attempting to change the subject for no real reason. In my humble opinion, of course.

    how do you presume to know more than the majority of the scientific comunity?
    After careful, painstaking analysis o ...[text shortened]... a stretch.[/b]
    Seriously? Newsflash, friend: God doesn't wear shoes. Sheesh.[/b]
    God doesn't wear shoes

    how do you freakin know?

    "As the Bible has not been proven wanting,"
    it has been proven wanting. only those that do are called heathens, heretics and "used-to-be-scientists-and-now-they're-evolutionary-evangelists". really? do you believe that is objective? those that support the bible are sound scientists. those that don't are politicizing. do you listen to yourself before posting? it might make the stupidity obvious and stopping you from embarrassing yourself

    well, at least you don't burn them heretics at the stake. that is progress at least i guess.
  5. Joined
    04 Feb '05
    Moves
    29132
    12 Dec '09 08:44
    Originally posted by galveston75
    The last I heard is that God is a spirit..so he'd be a little hard to see.
    you missed the point. the point was that science isn't god's enemy. you make it like it is. not once did science said god is not real. but as one scientist said when asked why god doesn't show up in his theorems, "i did not need this hypothesis to prove my claims".

    science does sciency stuff. beyond that there is god.
  6. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    12 Dec '09 12:225 edits
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Well, I guess I didn’t express myself well! 🙁


    Dogma, of course, can simply refer to an “authoritative” doctrine (e.g., of the church)—and might certainly be true. The word dogmatic, in this case means something different from the modern, generally pejorative sense.


    Yes, you always give reasons. But I was thinking back to your comments on my ...[text shortened]... . I wish I had made myself more clear, since nothing was intended as a criticism.

    Be well.
    =======================================
    Yes, you always give reasons. But I was thinking back to your comments on my lengthy exegesis of Second Isaiah about a year back. Ultimately, your position (I don’t recall your exact words) was that, as a Christian, you have to rely on the authority of the NT as you reflect on such texts from the Tanach. That is absolutely understandable and valid. From a Christian perspective, that authority of the NT is hardly “up for grabs”—it is, in a sense, defining. (And that, however one interprets the NT itself.) And I think you explained yourself (gave your reasons) clearly.
    ========================================


    I tend to be verbose and answer things which were not asked of me because I am so eager to talk about Jesus.

    Probably I said that if Matthew said this or that passage of Isaiah was prophetic, that was sufficient for me to believe it was, because the NT is the oracles of God as much as the Hebrew Bible.

    I understand that an Orthodox Jew would find this unacceptable. But even so, he, I think, has to deal with that fact that the Jewish scholars in Herod's day themselves pointed to the birthplace of the "born" messianic king - Bethlehem according to the prophet Micah.

    This is now not only a New Testament apostle teaching the messianic nature of Micah's prophecy. This is the Judaizers of Herod's day believing that Micah foretold of the Messiah being born in Bethlehem.

    A similar case occurs with the opposing high priest himself prophecying that one man would die for the whole nation of Israel (John 11:45-51).


    Here you have the opposition saying things that confirm the messianic office of Jesus.

    =======================================
    So, that is all I meant: that there are such defining aspects of being Christian that you cannot eschew without ceasing to be Christian. I wish I had made myself more clear, since nothing was intended as a criticism.
    =======================================


    Criticism helps me often. I have to go now.

    May God have mercy on us to open our minds to the truth.
  7. Wat?
    Joined
    16 Aug '05
    Moves
    76863
    12 Dec '09 12:47
    Originally posted by josephw
    The scientific method is to falsify a theory.

    If you can't prove God doesn't exist then why use science as a means for justifying His non-existence?

    You know, when you say there's no evidence. God is invisible, but what He has created isn't.

    Can't trust science anymore. It's a religion now. Politically motivated.
    The scientific method, to get things back on track, is to exactly PROVE a tried and tested theory.

    An engineering company, per se, supplies a car company with a rattling glove box, suddenly six months after production started. Something wasn't there in the beginning, or there was. The car line is about to be closed because of an error and customer complaints. The glovebox company says there is something that has changed, in the car it is supplying. The car company says everything is as per production launch, and it is the supplier's problem, and what's more they will pay for the line stoppage and loss of production.

    Where do you go?

    I go to the scientific method. TURN IT ON OR OFF!

    Find where and how the glovebox is rattling. Is it loose in the beginning? Is there a resonant frequency in the car that is causing it. Can it be a mixture of both?

    When the car was first tested, prior to launch, all was fine. During launch it was fine.

    I test the vehicle with resonant frequency, and records of the last year. I place an old glove box and it doesn't rattle. I place a new glovebox and it rattles. Ahum! Odd that isn't it. The supplier takes no responsibility, because he will lose at his own cost of supplying me tripe!

    I call him in, with his superbly arranged glove boxes that he says are perfect. They all rattle. I put on my own scientifically and historically, quality controlled and audited glove boxes, that he should be supplying to, and they don't rattle.

    His glove box belief stands no ground for my proof of his errors AND HIS BELIEVEING HE COULD CONVINCE ME HE WAS RIGHT.

    Switch it on and off, and we get an answer.

    Scientific method QED!!
  8. Unknown Territories
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    12 Dec '09 16:47
    Originally posted by mikelom
    The scientific method, to get things back on track, is to exactly PROVE a tried and tested theory.

    An engineering company, per se, supplies a car company with a rattling glove box, suddenly six months after production started. Something wasn't there in the beginning, or there was. The car line is about to be closed because of an error and customer complai ...[text shortened]... ME HE WAS RIGHT.

    Switch it on and off, and we get an answer.

    Scientific method QED!!
    Sorry to burst your bubble, mikelom, but before you go too far astray, you'll need to determine and establish which of the scientific methods you will be using as the yardstick.
  9. Unknown Territories
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    12 Dec '09 17:05
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    God doesn't wear shoes

    how do you freakin know?

    "As the Bible has not been proven wanting,"
    it has been proven wanting. only those that do are called heathens, heretics and "used-to-be-scientists-and-now-they're-evolutionary-evangelists". really? do you believe that is objective? those that support the bible are sound scientists. those that don't are ...[text shortened]... , at least you don't burn them heretics at the stake. that is progress at least i guess.
    how do you freakin know?
    The same freaking way I know anything about Him: divine revelation via the Bible.
    (Didn't you say you were a Christian, and yet this is a foreign thought to you? Strange.)

    it has been proven wanting.
    Well, that settles it! Nothing like a good ol' dogmatic statement based on one's own authority to put any dissension to rest. Good work.

    do you believe that is objective?
    That I do, but don't take my word for it. Take a look for yourself and see what--- besides producing reams of propaganda--- Dawkins, Scott, et al, have produced in the scientific world lately.

    those that support the bible are sound scientists. those that don't are politicizing.
    No. Those that remain within the parameters of science are scientists. Those that don't (but use science as a bully pulpit) are intent on muddying the waters in their power-grabbing ploys. These parasites--- and they're found on both sides of the aisle--- are despicable bottom-feeders, of whom history is never complimentary.

    do you listen to yourself before posting?
    Yes, I do; however, it's often difficult to hear what I have to say owing to all the other voices in my head. I have found that self-infliction of varying electrical voltages usually helps clear things up... even if only for a short duration.
  10. Joined
    04 Feb '05
    Moves
    29132
    13 Dec '09 17:59
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]how do you freakin know?
    The same freaking way I know anything about Him: divine revelation via the Bible.
    (Didn't you say you were a Christian, and yet this is a foreign thought to you? Strange.)

    it has been proven wanting.
    Well, that settles it! Nothing like a good ol' dogmatic statement based on one's own authority to put any disse ...[text shortened]... electrical voltages usually helps clear things up... even if only for a short duration.[/b]
    "The same freaking way I know anything about Him: divine revelation via the Bible."
    where in the bible does it say that god doesn't wear shoes? i want the verse in the form "book:chapter:verse" and it should sound something like "god doesn't nor will he in any second throughout eternity wear shoes"

    " Nothing like a good ol' dogmatic statement"
    who started it? weren't you the one that said that anything contradicting the bible is wrong? without proofs?


    Dawkins, aside from being a complete douchebag, happens to be a brilliant professor. also what do you mean by lately? last month? last year? what do you mean by produced? if you mean"something to go to Alpha Centauri with" then no he hasn't produced anything. By this same retarded argument, all creationist scientists are wrong because they haven't produced anything lately

    "muddying the waters in their power-grabbing ploys"
    geez, you think that if the evolutionists manage to get enough people to believe we descend from monkeys they would rule the world. like there is a secret organisation out there selling evolutionist toys. toys that just don't sell because of those darn champions of justice and truth, the creationists.

    so in your opinion, someone who says the flood didn't happen is a...?
    also is it correct that anyone who says the flood didn't happen, say me or twhite, has a secret agenda?
  11. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    14 Dec '09 05:201 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=======================================
    Yes, you always give reasons. But I was thinking back to your comments on my lengthy exegesis of Second Isaiah about a year back. Ultimately, your position (I don’t recall your exact words) was that, as a Christian, you have to rely on the authority of the NT as you reflect on such texts from the Tanach. That is ab s me often. I have to go now.

    May God have mercy on us to open our minds to the truth.
    [/b]I tend to be verbose, because…well, because… 🙁 (Line for line, jaywill, you and I might average the longest posts on here! 🙂 So I can’t call the kettle black).


    Everything you said here is correct, I think. The thing is that Judaism does not really have any centralizing doctrine of messiah; you will not find such a centralizing doctrine in the Talmud, for example. Hillel (an older contemporary of Jesus) did not really think that there was a future messiah to look for. On the other hand, some Jews (and learned Jews) surely thought that Jesus fit the bill.


    Renowned rabbi and scholar Jacob Neusner thought that the Gospel of Matthew represented an exemplary example of a particular class of Jewish midrash—and one that clearly drew on the Hebrew Scriptures in support of Jesus’ messiahship. Neusner also said that one should really not talk about “Judaism” in that period—but “Judaisms”. I don’t always agree with Neusner, but I think he got that one right.



    Probably I said that if Matthew said this or that passage of Isaiah was prophetic, that was sufficient for me to believe it was, because the NT is the oracles of God as much as the Hebrew Bible.


    And I think that’s an absolutely valid position. It might be a point of impasse, but I can’t say that it’s invalid.


    Always good to share thoughts with you.
  12. Subscriberjosephw
    Owner
    Scoffer Mocker
    Joined
    27 Sep '06
    Moves
    9958
    14 Dec '09 12:471 edit
    Originally posted by mikelom
    The scientific method, to get things back on track, is to exactly PROVE a tried and tested theory.

    An engineering company, per se, supplies a car company with a rattling glove box, suddenly six months after production started. Something wasn't there in the beginning, or there was. The car line is about to be closed because of an error and customer complai ME HE WAS RIGHT.

    Switch it on and off, and we get an answer.

    Scientific method QED!!
    Introduction to the Scientific Method


    The scientific method is the process by which scientists, collectively and over time, endeavor to construct an accurate (that is, reliable, consistent and non-arbitrary) representation of the world.
    Recognizing that personal and cultural beliefs influence both our perceptions and our interpretations of natural phenomena, we aim through the use of standard procedures and criteria to minimize those influences when developing a theory. As a famous scientist once said, "Smart people (like smart lawyers) can come up with very good explanations for mistaken points of view." In summary, the scientific method attempts to minimize the influence of bias or prejudice in the experimenter when testing an hypothesis or a theory.

    I. The scientific method has four steps
    1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

    2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

    3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

    4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

    If the experiments bear out the hypothesis it may come to be regarded as a theory or law of nature (more on the concepts of hypothesis, model, theory and law below). If the experiments do not bear out the hypothesis, it must be rejected or modified. What is key in the description of the scientific method just given is the predictive power (the ability to get more out of the theory than you put in; see Barrow, 1991) of the hypothesis or theory, as tested by experiment. It is often said in science that theories can never be proved, only disproved. There is always the possibility that a new observation or a new experiment will conflict with a long-standing theory.

    II. Testing hypotheses
    As just stated, experimental tests may lead either to the confirmation of the hypothesis, or to the ruling out of the hypothesis. The scientific method requires that an hypothesis be ruled out or modified if its predictions are clearly and repeatedly incompatible with experimental tests. Further, no matter how elegant a theory is, its predictions must agree with experimental results if we are to believe that it is a valid description of nature. In physics, as in every experimental science, "experiment is supreme" and experimental verification of hypothetical predictions is absolutely necessary. Experiments may test the theory directly (for example, the observation of a new particle) or may test for consequences derived from the theory using mathematics and logic (the rate of a radioactive decay process requiring the existence of the new particle). Note that the necessity of experiment also implies that a theory must be testable. Theories which cannot be tested, because, for instance, they have no observable ramifications (such as, a particle whose characteristics make it unobservable), do not qualify as scientific theories.

    If the predictions of a long-standing theory are found to be in disagreement with new experimental results, the theory may be discarded as a description of reality, but it may continue to be applicable within a limited range of measurable parameters. For example, the laws of classical mechanics (Newton's Laws) are valid only when the velocities of interest are much smaller than the speed of light (that is, in algebraic form, when v/c << 1). Since this is the domain of a large portion of human experience, the laws of classical mechanics are widely, usefully and correctly applied in a large range of technological and scientific problems. Yet in nature we observe a domain in which v/c is not small. The motions of objects in this domain, as well as motion in the "classical" domain, are accurately described through the equations of Einstein's theory of relativity. We believe, due to experimental tests, that relativistic theory provides a more general, and therefore more accurate, description of the principles governing our universe, than the earlier "classical" theory. Further, we find that the relativistic equations reduce to the classical equations in the limit v/c << 1. Similarly, classical physics is valid only at distances much larger than atomic scales (x >> 10-8 m). A description which is valid at all length scales is given by the equations of quantum mechanics.

    We are all familiar with theories which had to be discarded in the face of experimental evidence. In the field of astronomy, the earth-centered description of the planetary orbits was overthrown by the Copernican system, in which the sun was placed at the center of a series of concentric, circular planetary orbits. Later, this theory was modified, as measurements of the planets motions were found to be compatible with elliptical, not circular, orbits, and still later planetary motion was found to be derivable from Newton's laws.

    Error in experiments have several sources. First, there is error intrinsic to instruments of measurement. Because this type of error has equal probability of producing a measurement higher or lower numerically than the "true" value, it is called random error. Second, there is non-random or systematic error, due to factors which bias the result in one direction. No measurement, and therefore no experiment, can be perfectly precise. At the same time, in science we have standard ways of estimating and in some cases reducing errors. Thus it is important to determine the accuracy of a particular measurement and, when stating quantitative results, to quote the measurement error. A measurement without a quoted error is meaningless. The comparison between experiment and theory is made within the context of experimental errors. Scientists ask, how many standard deviations are the results from the theoretical prediction? Have all sources of systematic and random errors been properly estimated? This is discussed in more detail in the appendix on Error Analysis and in Statistics Lab 1.

    III. Common Mistakes in Applying the Scientific Method
    As stated earlier, the scientific method attempts to minimize the influence of the scientist's bias on the outcome of an experiment. That is, when testing an hypothesis or a theory, the scientist may have a preference for one outcome or another, and it is important that this preference not bias the results or their interpretation. The most fundamental error is to mistake the hypothesis for an explanation of a phenomenon, without performing experimental tests. Sometimes "common sense" and "logic" tempt us into believing that no test is needed. There are numerous examples of this, dating from the Greek philosophers to the present day.

    Another common mistake is to ignore or rule out data which do not support the hypothesis. Ideally, the experimenter is open to the possibility that the hypothesis is correct or incorrect. Sometimes, however, a scientist may have a strong belief that the hypothesis is true (or false), or feels internal or external pressure to get a specific result. In that case, there may be a psychological tendency to find "something wrong", such as systematic effects, with data which do not support the scientist's expectations, while data which do agree with those expectations may not be checked as carefully. The lesson is that all data must be handled in the same way.

    Another common mistake arises from the failure to estimate quantitatively systematic errors (and all errors). There are many examples of discoveries which were missed by experimenters whose data contained a new phenomenon, but who explained it away as a systematic background. Conversely, there are many examples of alleged "new discoveries" which later proved to be due to systematic errors not accounted for by the "discoverers."


    In a field where there is active experimentation and open communication among members of the scientific community, the biases of individuals or groups may cancel out, because experimental tests are repeated by different scientists who may have different biases. In addition, different types of experimental setups have different sources of systematic errors. Over a period spanning a variety of experimental tests (usually at least several years), a consensus develops in the community as to which experimental results have stood the test of time.

    IV. Hypotheses, Models, Theories and Laws
    In physics and other science disciplines, the words "hypothesis," "model," "theory" and "law" have different connotations in relation to the stage of acceptance or knowledge about a group of phenomena.
  13. Joined
    04 Feb '05
    Moves
    29132
    14 Dec '09 13:13
    Originally posted by josephw
    Introduction to the Scientific Method


    The scientific method is the process by which scientists, collectively and over time, endeavor to construct an accurate (that is, reliable, consistent and non-arbitrary) representation of the world.
    Recognizing that personal and cultural beliefs influence both our perceptions and our interpretations of natural phen ...[text shortened]... he stage of acceptance or knowledge about a group of phenomena.
    wiki, right?
  14. Joined
    01 Jun '06
    Moves
    274
    14 Dec '09 13:182 edits
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Sorry to burst your bubble, mikelom, but before you go too far astray, you'll need to determine and establish which of the scientific methods you will be using as the yardstick.
    Mikelom is essentially right (bar some mis-understandings, eg science is not about proving anything, it is more about dis-proving things). josephw's "Introduction to the Scientific Method" post, above, is a reasonable description of it.

    Freaky, was it you that I had a long argument with in the Science Wars thread? If not I apologise but whoever it was was not able to come up with any other method to the one outlined in josephw's post obove.

    There is only one scientific method.

    --- Penguin.
  15. Unknown Territories
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    14 Dec '09 14:241 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "The same freaking way I know anything about Him: divine revelation via the Bible."
    where in the bible does it say that god doesn't wear shoes? i want the verse in the form "book:chapter:verse" and it should sound something like "god doesn't nor will he in any second throughout eternity wear shoes"

    " Nothing like a good ol' dogmatic statement"
    who sta ne who says the flood didn't happen, say me or twhite, has a secret agenda?
    where in the bible does it say that god doesn't wear shoes? i want the verse in the form "book:chapter:verse"
    "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
    John:4:24

    and it should sound something like "god doesn't nor will he in any second throughout eternity wear shoes"
    Sorry to disappoint; we'll leave the revisionary work to you.

    Dawkins, aside from being a complete douchebag, happens to be a brilliant professor.
    One whose arrogance and agenda has blinded him in his ability to remain (as brilliant professors are expected to be) objective. This guy's ax is so big, it's nearly biblical.

    also what do you mean by lately? last month? last year? what do you mean by produced?
    Well, he started off in zoology/ethology which required research in various settings, but opted to head straight to the academic world, where his research since 1967 came to a complete and utter halt.
    Zilch, nada, zip.

    Otherwise, he has been instrumental in the following production:
    Official website. Includes news articles, videos, forums, book extracts, and a store.
    You know, like any good scientist would do.

    By this same retarded argument, all creationist scientists are wrong because they haven't produced anything lately
    I am a firm believer in what the Lord Jesus Christ said, and here I refer to when He said:
    "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
    For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

    While our Lord here was obviously referring to spiritual matters, the same principle holds true for truth. I find contemptible any pseudo-truth seeker who, clinging so desperately to their fragile world view, dons the guise of objective truth as their robes, achingly transparent, reveal their soiled nakedness for the whole world to see.

    geez, you think that if the evolutionists manage to get enough people to believe we descend from monkeys they would rule the world. like there is a secret organisation out there selling evolutionist toys. toys that just don't sell because of those darn champions of justice and truth, the creationists.
    Cute. But you do realize, of course, that (as I pointed out above) there exist websites completely dedicated to one purpose, i.e., propagation of world views based solely on how life began? Why such a perceived need?

    so in your opinion, someone who says the flood didn't happen is a...?
    ... person who doesn't have all the facts.

    also is it correct that anyone who says the flood didn't happen, say me or twhite, has a secret agenda?
    I know nothing of your secret club.
    And I promise not to tell anyone else about it.
Back to Top

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree