1. Standard memberknightwest
    General of GROSS
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    12 Dec '06 12:40
    I've noticed Scientology really aggresively trying to get people in with so-called "Stress tests" on the streets of London. These are offered for free, but the "Dianetics" book is on sale there too. I wonder if these "stress tests" are set up to make people believe they are very stressed and then try and dupe them into buying the book and ultimately joining Scientology.

    I don't want to cause offence to any Scientologists on here, i don't know much about it, but I've always been led to believe that this "church" is somewhat suspect.

    Any thoughts?
  2. Cape Town
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    12 Dec '06 13:15
    Originally posted by knightwest
    I've noticed Scientology really aggresively trying to get people in with so-called "Stress tests" on the streets of London. These are offered for free, but the "Dianetics" book is on sale there too. I wonder if these "stress tests" are set up to make people believe they are very stressed and then try and dupe them into buying the book and ultimately joini ...[text shortened]... always been led to believe that this "church" is somewhat suspect.

    Any thoughts?
    I have received a few adverts for free "stress tests" in my mail box (snail mail not email).
    And yes it is clear that the intention is to show that you are stressed and need help.
    However I see this as no different from Christians who come to me and try to convince me that my soul badly needs saving and I must buy a book to find out more.
    All advertising is based on the idea of trying to convince potential customers that they require what you have on offer. The only question is whether the customer really needs what you are offering and whether you are asking a fair price.
    So rather than criticizing their advertising methods lets hear some evidence that what they have for sale is not worth it.
  3. Standard memberknightwest
    General of GROSS
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    12 Dec '06 13:241 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have received a few adverts for free "stress tests" in my mail box (snail mail not email).
    And yes it is clear that the intention is to show that you are stressed and need help.
    However I see this as no different from Christians who come to me and try to convince me that my soul badly needs saving and I must buy a book to find out more.
    All advertisi ...[text shortened]... heir advertising methods lets hear some evidence that what they have for sale is not worth it.
    I have read up on it a bit now and it seems that the teachings of Scientology have absolutely no basis in modern science or medicine. some of the things they advocate can be downright dangerous, such as their stance on psychotherapy and silent birth. Also the church recommends to its members to cut ties with friends and relatives who are critical of the church.

    I take your point about Christianity using similar approaches, but in my experience have not come across recognised christian churches (ie the CoE) advertising very expensive courses ($10'000 - $30'000). At my local church, all the courses i see advertised are offered for free.

    Also, the Scientology tendency to take people to court who criticise it seems punitive. Thankfully we live in a society where religions are open to critical debate. And while the CoE sometimes seems like it has lost its touch, it don't think it has ever taken journalists, former members etc to court for badmouthing it.

    EDIT: I am talking about modern times, I am very well aware of the christian approach to dissent in earlier times.
  4. Cape Town
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    12 Dec '06 13:44
    Originally posted by knightwest
    I have read up on it a bit now and it seems that the teachings of Scientology have absolutely no basis in modern science or medicine. some of the things they advocate can be downright dangerous, such as their stance on psychotherapy and silent birth. Also the church recommends to its members to cut ties with friends and relatives who are critical of the c ...[text shortened]... out modern times, I am very well aware of the christian approach to dissent in earlier times.
    Yes Scientology is rather like astrology in that astrology is not astronomy and Scientology is a religion not science. From what I have seen of it, it is little more than a money making scheme. However, though not as excessive, I have come across Christian denominations that are also largely money making schemes. In fact many of the top Christian evangelists focus mostly on making money. I know people who have stopped going to church because the sermon every single Sunday was about giving to the church.

    And what do you mean by 'recognized'?
  5. Joined
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    12 Dec '06 13:483 edits
    Originally posted by knightwest
    I have read up on it a bit now and it seems that the teachings of Scientology have absolutely no basis in modern science or medicine. some of the things they advocate can be downright dangerous, such as their stance on psychotherapy and silent birth. Also the church recommends to its members to cut ties with friends and relatives who are critical of the c it don't think it has ever taken journalists, former members etc to court for badmouthing it.
    Indeed. Scientology is nothing short of a cult. It is all about the organization and their classes. For me, this is one of the criterea that defines what a cult is all about. A cult is an organization who's main focus is the organization itself. Granted, Christians can also fall into this trap. Christians who do fall into this trap often focus on a charismatic leader of some kind and the focus becomes following the leader instead of their God. Also JW's come to mind. If you ever talk to a JW, they will spend hours upon hours giving praise to their organization and how their organization is perfect in every way and the one true organization above all else. Just a word of caution. Any time man is glorified or the organizations of which man is apart is glorified, watch out!!!!!!

    Having said all that, I do believe that Scientology has some valid gripes. Psychology is not a perfect science and not all who are medicated are appropriately medicated. For example, depression is a condition that has many causes. It may be that a person begins to think negative thoughts for so long that they actually become depressed. In such a case, one of those classes offered by scientology may be of some benefit and indeed I have heard of instances where people have been helped. Changing ones thought life may lessen or take away ones depression. Drugs that may have unecessarily been perscribed by a psychologist may then be averted. However, if the depression is caused by a chemical imbalace, for example, the class will of little to no benefit. It is easy to focus on how the Scientologists do what they do for our almighty dollar, but what about psychologists? Are they immune from the greed that the Scientologist seems to be exhibiting? Could there not be Scientologists who have a genuine interest in helping people as well as a psychologist who is only interested in the revenue generated by his patients? In such a situation the psychologist may perscribe a medication so as to generate future office visits to refill perscriptions etc. For example, it has often been speculated in the media that to many children are diagnosed with attention deficit disorder. Is it really a disorder or a disorder in all cases? Is it always necessary to perscribe a drug called ritiline in all cases? I think not.
  6. Joined
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    12 Dec '06 13:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Yes Scientology is rather like astrology in that astrology is not astronomy and Scientology is a religion not science. From what I have seen of it, it is little more than a money making scheme. However, though not as excessive, I have come across Christian denominations that are also largely money making schemes. In fact many of the top Christian evangeli ...[text shortened]... n every single Sunday was about giving to the church.

    And what do you mean by 'recognized'?
    Sadly it is true. Lovers of money and not of God.
  7. Cosmos
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    12 Dec '06 14:03
    Originally posted by knightwest
    I've noticed Scientology really aggresively trying to get people in with so-called "Stress tests" on the streets of London. These are offered for free, but the "Dianetics" book is on sale there too. I wonder if these "stress tests" are set up to make people believe they are very stressed and then try and dupe them into buying the book and ultimately joini ...[text shortened]... always been led to believe that this "church" is somewhat suspect.

    Any thoughts?
    I took great delight in announcing to the con-artists that scientology was a load of bull when my girlfriend recently nearly got duped into buying their nonsensical tomes after a "stress test".

    Elron Cupboard, the inventor of Scientology was a science-fiction writer.

    Keyword "FICTION".

    Are you listening Cruise, Travolta and other dumb planks of wood?
  8. Cape Town
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    12 Dec '06 14:25
    I see no difference between scientology, which is a group of people trying to make money by dupeing others and relying on peoples natural trust in anything 'scientific' and some christian groups which are groups of people trying to make money by dupeing others and relying on peoples natural trust in christianity.
    In both cases I am sure there are a number of people with very genuine motives of trying to help others.
    Scientology is just more obvious and open to criticism. For some reason people find it really hard to criticise a christian group even when it is obvious that they are just out to make money. the same applies in politics. Many people support leaders who claim to be christian whatever their actions reveal.
  9. Felicific Forest
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    12 Dec '06 16:32
    Originally posted by knightwest
    I've noticed Scientology really aggresively trying to get people in with so-called "Stress tests" on the streets of London. These are offered for free, but the "Dianetics" book is on sale there too. I wonder if these "stress tests" are set up to make people believe they are very stressed and then try and dupe them into buying the book and ultimately joini ...[text shortened]... always been led to believe that this "church" is somewhat suspect.

    Any thoughts?
    Don't get involved with these people.
  10. Felicific Forest
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    12 Dec '06 16:501 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Yes Scientology is rather like astrology in that astrology is not astronomy and Scientology is a religion not science. From what I have seen of it, it is little more than a money making scheme. However, though not as excessive, I have come across Christian denominations that are also largely money making schemes. In fact many of the top Christian evangeli ...[text shortened]... n every single Sunday was about giving to the church.

    And what do you mean by 'recognized'?
    Scientology is not a religion. They call themselves a church because in this way they can be free of taxation in most countries. They should be taxed like any other firm trying to make money though.

    Germany takes the right course of action against these dangerous frauds:

    The following page provides background information about this criminal organisation:

    http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/germany/


    "In two different 1995 news magazine articles the labor minister called Scientology Germany's most dangerous sect, claimed that Scientology members were "infiltrating the economy" and suggested they be banned from any occupations that intersect with society (which would seem to include just about any job in Germany)."

    http://www.german-way.com/religion.html
  11. Felicific Forest
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    12 Dec '06 17:072 edits
    Mr. Ron Hubbard, founder of "Scientology":

    "The goal of the department is to bring the government and hostile philosophies or societies into a state of complete compliance with the goals of Scientology. This is done by high-level ability to control and in its absence by low-level ability to overwhelm. Introvert such agencies. Control such agencies. Scientology is the only game on Earth where everybody wins."

    " The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line - a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred - or simply quarantining them from the society.

    A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country."


    http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/germany/quotes.html
  12. Felicific Forest
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    12 Dec '06 17:091 edit
    "The German government alleges that Scientology is a totalitarian organization which tries to achieve political power. "

    http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/germany/quotes.html
  13. Donationbelgianfreak
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    12 Dec '06 17:15
    Originally posted by whodey
    Psychology is not a perfect science and not all who are medicated are appropriately medicated.
    just a minor nit-pick... I thought psychiatrists were the doctors doing the medicating and psychologists were the non-doctors who talked with patients and got them to talk about their feelings/mothers. This may be a national difference, but maybe important as in the UK you don't need any qualifications to call yourself a psychologist.

    This also throws up a distinction - you say that scientology classes may help people by changing the way they think without medication, but that is what psychologists do, and although they may very well be after your money (esp. in view that anyone can say that they're a psychologist and charge £40/hour) at least they're not trying ot convince you that any good that happens is due to their religion - I'd fear that any improvements based on this would either be short lived or used to manipulate the person later.

    Your'e right that psychiatry isn't a perfect science - no medicine is - but psychiatry is further behind than others because teh brain is so damn complex.
    Having said this, psychiatrists may not always medicate people appropriately, but they don't jump for pills as a first measure (in the UK at least). Medications (should be) used only when there is clear indications that they (or at least something pill wise is needed. Even then it's a slow, waiting game - I've had psychiatrists tell me that they're happy with the rate of progress of a patient who has finally improved enough to go home after 6 years of therapy & meds!
  14. The sky
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    12 Dec '06 22:30
    Originally posted by knightwest
    I've noticed Scientology really aggresively trying to get people in with so-called "Stress tests" on the streets of London. These are offered for free, but the "Dianetics" book is on sale there too. I wonder if these "stress tests" are set up to make people believe they are very stressed and then try and dupe them into buying the book and ultimately joining Scientology.
    Yes, they are. No matter what answers you give, they will give you a result showing that your life is pretty bad. Then they'll offer you to take a class (I think that first one may be free), and after that you'll be asked to take the same test again, and no matter what answers you give, you will have improved, but not quite enough to have a good life, so they'll try to persuade you to take more classes (which, of course, won't be free). I know of someone who tried this out by giving random answers, and giving the same answers after taking the first class.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Dec '06 22:491 edit
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Scientology is not a religion. They call themselves a church because in this way they can be free of taxation in most countries. They should be taxed like any other firm trying to make money though.

    Germany takes the right course of action against these dangerous frauds:

    The following page provides background information about this criminal organisatio seem to include just about any job in Germany)."

    http://www.german-way.com/religion.html
    Germany looks like its going back to its old habits. I wonder if a country declared that the RCC was primarily an economic organization (after all, it possesses immeasurably more wealth than the CoS), taxed it and suggested banning Roman Catholics from pretty much every job in its economy, whether you would be soooooooooooooooo supportive.
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