Self Proclaimed Salvation

Originally posted by @secondson
Well, it's good to know righteous judge Rajk is here to help God separate the sheep from the goats.

I hope you make it into the kingdom Rajk because I'm going to come looking for you. You shouldn't be too difficult to identify all high and lifted up and over laden with many crowns.

Do you even know what the doctrine of the Nocolaitans is?

There are no class distinctions between Christians. Dummy.

Again the church fights against Christ.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Again the church fights against Christ.

The doctrine of the Nocolaitans Rajk. What is it?

There are no class distinctions in the church.

Now make another unintelligible remark and ignore the subject matter.

Originally posted by @secondson
The doctrine of the Nocolaitans Rajk. What is it?

There are no class distinctions in the church.

Now make another unintelligible remark and ignore the subject matter.

I quoted a reference from Christ which stated about least and great in the Kingdom of God. You raised the doctrine of the Nicoltains, implying that it had to do with classes of Christians. I do not need to educate you. You brought it. If you did not mean that then say so.

Originally posted by @rajk999
I quoted a reference from Christ which stated about least and great in the Kingdom of God. You raised the doctrine of the Nicoltains, implying that it had to do with classes of Christians. I do not need to educate you. You brought it. If you did not mean that then say so.

As usual you confounded what I actually said.

A clear indication that you either failed to comprehend what I wrote, and/or you didn't really read it at all.

You look and sound like a fool. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

Originally posted by @secondson
As usual you confounded what I actually said.

A clear indication that you either failed to comprehend what I wrote, and/or you didn't really read it at all.

You look and sound like a fool. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

All that blah blah blah and you cannot explain yourself.

Clearly you have nothing of substance to say.

Originally posted by @secondson
Ephesians 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

I haven't got the slightest idea what you mean by "judge of our salvation". The idea is erroneous in the first place.

I take it, based on your OP, that you don't believe one can know they are saved with any certainty. So what, and who cares wh ...[text shortened]... classes your out of your mind. Sounds like the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans", which Jesus hates.

The word of God does not say what you claim. You may be confident of your salvation this is true but the Bible tempers such confidence with the limitation of human perception.

You, on the other hand, believe your perception on par with God.

Originally posted by @eladar
The word of God does not say what you claim. You may be confident of your salvation this is true but the Bible tempers such confidence with the limitation of human perception.

You, on the other hand, believe your perception on par with God.

I'm not relying on human perception. I'm relying on the Word of God.

Don't blame me if you can't understand what God has said.

Proverbs 3:5,6
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Romans 10:8-11
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I'm saved. No doubt about it.

Gripes your ass doesn't it. Too bad. I hear God. Not you.

Originally posted by @secondson
I'm not relying on human perception. I'm relying on the Word of God.

Don't blame me if you can't understand what God has said.

Proverbs 3:5,6
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Romans 10:8-11
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, ...[text shortened]... .

I'm saved. No doubt about it.

Gripes your ass doesn't it. Too bad. I hear God. Not you.

Perhaps you will be found righteous perhaps you will not. You are not God to know.

Of course Satan wants you believe otherwise. Satan wants people to believe they are equal to God.

You would be wise to follow Paul's instruction to judge nothing before God's judgment and to work out your salvation here on earth.

We do not attach ourselves to Christ such that we could boast.
But Paul says it is God who firmly attaches .

"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God." (2 Cor. 1:21)

The word "But" implies "Don't get the wrong impression" -
Ie. We have faith, we have belief, we trust in God ... BUT ... the One who has done the job to FIRMLY ATTACHES together to Christ is God. God has done the attaching.

So Tom's fellowship I read a few times, understood, and contemplated. The guarantee is in what GOD does. If God does not firmly attach us to Christ, we are not going to be attached no matter what we believe or say.

How about this? Our speaking in faith means much ... BUT ... God is the attaching One.

"But the One who firmly attaches us to Christ and has anointed us is God.

He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (1 Cor. 1:21,22)

Originally posted by @sonship
We do not attach ourselves to Christ such that we could boast.
But Paul says it is God who [b]firmly attaches .

"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God." (2 Cor. 1:21)

The word "But" implies "Don't get the wrong impression" -
Ie. We have faith, we have belief, we tru ...[text shortened]... s also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (1 Cor. 1:21,22) [/b] [/quote][/b]

Yes God does. You may be part of the elect and you may not.

Here is what Jesus said according to John

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


Evidently Jesus believes it is possible to be part of the vine then be removed. Not exactly the gospel you preach.

Originally posted by @eladar

My bolding -

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


Evidently Jesus believes it is possible to be part of the vine then be removed. Not exactly the gospel you preach.

I don't take that as eternal perdition to anyone who has believed into Christ.

If I thought that no discipline occurs to the person who becomes a believer then I might regard that as indicating to be eternally lost after being redeemed and put into Christ. Since the NT teaches that is not the case I don't regard the warning of John 15:6 to indicate eternal separation from Christ.

It does not specify who the gatherers are.

The NT and history shows that worldly people may "gather" those who are not strongly abiding in Christ, and may cast them into their worldly purposes. This in effect damages the life flow of the abiding one and can shipwreck his Christian testimony.

It's seriousness to the Lord Jesus is as if the non-abiding branch was gathered by unbelievers or worldly people and burned as to the uselessness of their testimony.

If they are redeemed with an eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12) but God changes His mind and makes the eternal redemption a temporary redemption, and the Christian is UN-redeemed now, then the New Testament collapses into a lie.

1.) How can you prove that the gatherers who gather the dried up branches are the angels ?

2.) If they are men where do men have the authority to cast backslidden Christians into the lake of fire?

3.) Romans 11:23 teaches that in an analogy of separated branches God is able to graft in again.

"And they also if they do not continue in unbelief, will be graftedd in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Rom. 11:23)

I do not say that the two parables are exactly equivalent.
I am not saying Roman 11 is a continuation of John 15.

But I am saying that in the Holy Spirit using the symbol of branches dis-attached because of discipline are also said to be grafted in again.

How do you know for certain that the able God cannot do the same with the disciplined branches of John 15 ?

Originally posted by @rajk999
Who cares. Jesus said how he will judge people. Thats final.
Keep your opinions to yourself.

If only you would do the same.

I'm not holding my breath for that one.

Originally posted by @divegeester
I find a lot of people to be selfish objectionable asholes, so not having many of them deep into my life isn't a problem for me. Having said that I’m quite extrovert so enjoy seeking out people to talk to.

I tend to enjoy being shallow and superficial so I can’t cope with too many deep relationships where I really care for the person.

Now that is quite the admission, and it explains much.

Originally posted by @divegeester
You sound like you’re speaking from personal experience?

Yes, I am.

Originally posted by @eladar
The word of God does not say what you claim.

You are the absolute master of irony.

No, my thick friend, the Word of God does not say what YOU claim.