People sell their souls all the time for fame, fortune, and lust and they don't have to go to the devil to do it, they throw everything they are and have to make it happen, life, health, friends, family. Whatever it takes morals become mutable to justify themselves, they will make anything fit if it gives them want in the end. People are turned into objects to be used, they focus on number one, making themselves autonomous, the sole legislator of good and evil in their minds.
Now this means no matter what happens in the end they want what they want, and it also means because they do live in a world with others who are not objects and would object to being used as one, being aware of that, they have to count the cost, can I sleep with someone's spouse and not get caught, or is the price to heavy so I will not. This counting the cost shows they are well aware that actions have consequences, but if payday is not feared they do what they want as long as they want, while they can.
@KellyJay saidYes, we ALL struggle with sin Kelly; including you. Good reminder tho when we see ourselves falling into these thoughts and actions.
People sell their souls all the time for fame, fortune, and lust and they don't have to go to the devil to do it, they throw everything they are and have to make it happen, life, health, friends, family. Whatever it takes morals become mutable to justify themselves, they will make anything fit if it gives them want in the end. People are turned into objects to be used, they ...[text shortened]... nsequences, but if payday is not feared they do what they want as long as they want, while they can.
@KingDavid403 saidYes, I'm quite aware of my sinful nature too.
Yes, we ALL struggle with sin Kelly; including you. Good reminder tho when we see ourselves falling into these thoughts and actions.
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@KellyJay saidIf fear of a divine payday is what it takes to stop you sleeping with someone else's spouse, fair enough. I achieve the same outcome with moral fortitude.
People sell their souls all the time for fame, fortune, and lust and they don't have to go to the devil to do it, they throw everything they are and have to make it happen, life, health, friends, family. Whatever it takes morals become mutable to justify themselves, they will make anything fit if it gives them want in the end. People are turned into objects to be used, they ...[text shortened]... nsequences, but if payday is not feared they do what they want as long as they want, while they can.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidLovely thought, did you make up your moral fortitude simply because on your own you came up with the idea to suppress the thoughts and live with constraints that your impulses would take you?
If fear of a divine payday is what it takes to stop you sleeping with someone's else spouse, fair enough. I achieve the same outcome with moral fortitude.
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@KellyJay saidNo. Morality is formed during the socialization process (within a given society) and is influenced by many factors. It is a child like error to assume atheists make up their own morality separate from the community they grow up in.
Lovely thought, did you make up your moral fortitude simply because on your own you came up with the idea to suppress the thoughts and live with constraints that your impulses would take you?
The point remains however that I refrain from sleeping with another man's spouse without the feat of divine consequences. This is not a moral outlook I came up with on my own, but is the result of the moral norm of my given upbringing. Morality will invariable differ from society to society (and even change within a society over time) but tend to coalesce on the really big moral issues (like murder being wrong etc).
Again, in you require fear of divine punishment to motivate you to be a decent human being, good for you. But don't think we all need such motivation.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidI'm talking about self-restraint, and you can look at societies around the world, not everyone is coalescing to the idea of self-restraint, nor are they all on the same page within cultures. Exactly how was what I said about people restraining themselves due to the price they would pay, different from doing something like sleeping with someone's wife, that is some what different than what you claim you have? You don't care about what would happen if you knew you could get away with it, you have a firm grip on society's norms within you. You are good because society has put an outside influence on you, that gives you moral clarity within so in your opinion it is all self-driven, isn't that contradictory?
No. Morality is formed during the socialization process (within a given society) and is influenced by many factors. It is a child like error to assume atheists make up their own morality separate from the community they grow up in.
The point remains however that I refrain from sleeping with another man's spouse without the feat of divine consequences. This is not ...[text shortened]... motivate you to be a decent human being, good for you. But don't think we all need such motivation.
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@KellyJay saidMy moral compass is comprised of my personal experiences/upbringing and societal influences. (None of the components of that compass are of divine origin.) There is nothing contradictory in what I wrote.
I'm talking about self-restraint, and you can look at societies around the world, not everyone is coalescing to the idea of self-restraint, nor are they all on the same page within cultures. Exactly how was what I said about people restraining themselves due to the price they would pay, different from doing something like sleeping with someone's wife, that is some what diff ...[text shortened]... t gives you moral clarity within so in your opinion it is all self-driven, isn't that contradictory?
My morality, for example when it comes to not sleeping with another man's spouse, is self driven. If yours is not, and the only thing preventing you from doing such a thing is fear of divine punishment, that I would argue that your own personal moral compass is broken.
A child might 'do good,' due to fear of punishment by a parent if they 'did bad' but a well adjusted adult should 'do good' for its own sake, as they know it is the right thing to do. (Not due to a fear of the consequences of doing bad). If you personally would collapse into moral debauchery if you lost your faith in God, then I would seriously question the fortitude of your moral compass.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidYes, and again when I said we look at what we want, we make judgment calls, can we do it by measuring the price, is it too dear to pay? How would your experiences not guide you, or inform you there would be a negative price to pay? To know those things, or anything else, requires consciousness of consequences that you cannot explain by chemical reactions.
My moral compass is comprised of my personal experiences/upbringing and societal influences. (None of the components of that compass are of divine origin.) There is nothing contradictory in what I wrote.
My morality, for example when it comes to not sleeping with another man's spouse, is self driven. If yours is not, and the only thing preventing you from doing suc ...[text shortened]... if you lost your faith in God, then I would seriously question the fortitude of your moral compass.
You deny divine origin, yeah well, that is your opinion. What is contradictory is our awareness of choices and consequences, these do not arise due to chemical reactions, chemicals don't worry about pain or pleasure, they don't worry about societal influences, chemical reactions what chemicals do nothing special they react consistently nothing new there. In the leap from the material to the awareness of the immaterial you employ the evolution of the gaps there is nothing that takes you from material to the immaterial consciousness.
So you have to be aware of consequences, and that requires more than a set of chemicals lining up as if some string of proteins gives us desires and pause due to consequences. Then we have things that although they give us immediate pleasure and without immediate consequences are still wrong, that too is not something even driven by the cause and effect of pleasure and pain but judgment calls.