- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by FMF
Acts where my human conscience informs me that something is wrong and offends that conscience are most likely to be immoral acts or perhaps feelings of regret or failure.
I believe that we are all indeed created with a conscience as a kind of "breaking system". This human conscience will restrict somewhat our total slide down into abject immorality.
It does not completely save us. And some can suppress the conscience and eventually live as if they have none.
To say "Saying one does not believe in God so he has no sin doesn't work" is utter nonsense,
You just stated that in your own personal case, you know your conscience works for you.
unless you are simply looking at the acts of people who have different beliefs than you through the prism of your personal superstition.
" Unless ..." (arguably maybe), but since I am not, its not a point.
IE. In the Far East people bow to one another to show respect.
In the West people stand erect before each other but shakes hands to show respect.
The bottom line is to show respect.
The method of showing respect may differ according to culture.
My conscience may bother me if I refuse to shake someone's hand to whom respect is due. But it would not if I failed to bow to them. That is only because being a westerner, shaking hands, is the mode used.
... looking at the acts of people who have different beliefs than you through the prism of your personal superstition.
Christians are perfectly able to realize there are different beliefs, different norms, different customs around the globe which may interact with their consciences.
FMF is not the only one who can travel and observe others' beliefs.
I have hosted a foreign student from Korea in my home. He was a Christian. Yet I was quite educated in some of the differences in his domestic habits and expressions of respect.
Christian missionaries often are very knowledgeable in the norms and beliefs of people of "foreign" lands to which they go. (I said often not always).
"Christians are hung up on local superstitions" is a skeptic's wishful daydream.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
I would have to review it carefully, but I think I recall that in the book of Romans Paul firsts discusses plural sins as the bad acts. Then at a certain juncture, I think around chapter 6, he begins to discuss more the nature - sin [singular].
Sometimes the terms SIN, SINS, or commit a SIN, or SINNING may confuse.
Pop culture spoke much of "The Force". In the Bible the nature of sin is really "the Force" in a negative way. And in a positive way Christ coming into people is the heavenly living Force which delivers from the power and guilt of sin.
Compare these two passages to see the contrast -
Romans 7:20b - " ... it is no longer I that work it out but SIN that dwells in me."
This conveys the negative force of sin dragging down, driving people.
Galatians 2:20 - " ... it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..."
This is the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ setting free from the power of sin.
Both are more a matter of compounding rather than substituting. EGO is not totally gone. EGO - (I) is compounded upon in one way away from God and in the other towards God.
"The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" is like the law of gravity. Once you receive Christ Jesus into your heart, into your innermost spiritual being, and learn to abide in Him - turning the mind to set it upon His living presence - His life within operates like an innate law.
"There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (Rom. 8:1,2 Recovery Version)
Other translations of Romans 8:2
Parallel Verses
New International Version
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
New Living Translation
And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.
English Standard Version
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
New American Standard Bible
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
King James Bible
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
International Standard Version
For the Spirit's law of life in the Messiah Jesus has set me free from the Law of sin and death.
Christ in His form as a life giving Spirit is powerful when the skill of abiding in Him is cultivated. He acts like the law of gravity. He regulates and empowers one to overcome the weaker law of sin and death infesting all the descendents of Adam.
Originally posted by FMFAlso I think everyone has different sets of 'sins' to overcome. It's not the same for everyone, that's why we can't copy each other and why we should think for ourselves, relying on our own authority.
karoly's "Anything that is 'God-eclipsing'" has a bit of mumbo jumbo going on, albeit harmlessly so.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by karoly aczelIn the film Orca the whaler goes to a Catholic Priest and asks him if it is possible to sin against an animal. The priest replies that ultimately all sins are committed against oneself. Which I find quite an interesting point. Consider the Classical Greek notion of arete which roughly translates into moral well-being. To commit a sin is to do wrong and the perpetrator cannot fail to realise the harm they have caused. Even if they do not do so at the time they will look back on it. To sin is to damage one's own moral well-being. So I don't think it does require a specific authority. The external authority is the normalizing view of society but that is a general thing to do with the conditions of one's existence. If I hurt someone else I know I've hurt them I don't need society to tell me, but in hurting them I have hurt myself, damaged my arete and therein lies the sin.
Also I think everyone has different sets of 'sins' to overcome. It's not the same for everyone, that's why we can't copy each other and why we, not should think for ourselves, not relying on our own authority.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by josephwI too don't acknowledge the validity of "sin" in any discussion of morality. A number of things that are "sinful" are just daft - working on Sundays anyone!?? 😕
Bull.
"Sin" is just acting in any way counter to the will of your notion of "God", and given that this entity is intrinsically immoral anyway, then rejecting this terminology on such grounds is wholly defensible.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by AgergIn the Gospels Christ says that the Sabbeth was made for man and not man for the Sabbeth. If you do some work on a Saturday or Sunday because you enjoy it or for your own benefit then that's fine - if you make someone else work on that day (or they get the sack) then it's not.
I too don't acknowledge the validity of "sin" in any discussion of morality. A number of things that are "sinful" are just daft - working on Sundays anyone!?? 😕
"Sin" is just acting in any way counter to the will of your notion of "God", and given that this entity is intrinsically immoral anyway, then rejecting this terminology on such grounds is wholly defensible.
11 Dec 14
3 edits
Originally posted by DeepThoughtWell ... that depends on how literally you interpret the Bible, or which version of it you have ...
In the Gospels Christ says that the Sabbeth was made for man and not man for the Sabbeth. If you do some work on a Saturday or Sunday because you enjoy it or for your own benefit then that's fine - if you make someone else work on that day (or they get the sack) then it's not.
Exodus 35:2
Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Numbers 15:32-41
While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by Agerg
Well ... that depends on how literally you interpret the Bible, or which version of it you have ...
[b]Exodus 35:2
Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Numbers 15:32-41[/b]Yes, but we're arguing with Christians not Jews. The New Testament overrides the Old. Also my statement's based around my arete idea from my post preceding the one you're replying to. If the work you are doing improves your moral well-being then it's fine, if it's just drudgery then it's not.
While the people of Israel we ...[text shortened]... t him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtand the "Christian" I responded to (josephw), along with nearly all other fundamentalist Christians, holds that the Old Testament is as reliable as the new Testament.
Yes, but we're arguing with Christians not Jews. The New Testament overrides the Old. Also my statement's based around my arete idea from my post preceding the one you're replying to. If the work you are doing improves your moral well-being then it's fine, if it's just drudgery then it's not.
The majority of Christians* regularly posting on these forums at the moment are 6000 year old earth, talking snake, Noah's ark, eternal hell believing fundamentalists - for them, the New Testament does NOT override the Old Testament.
------------------------------------
* Kellyjay, sonship, josephw, grampy bobby, RBHILL, RJHinds,
at least the character he plays
to name but a few