(I) I appreciate that honest assessment.
I had a friend who was chronically depressed and a substance abuser that became a Buddhist and after just a year or so he was like a different person -- very positive, very kind, unflappable. He became focused and more content. I do not believe in Buddhism and would still proselytize to him gently and debate a bit if the topic came up... But I do know that this development in virtue is the result of these good principles found in Buddhism, so I have always decided that I will respect religion or systems that produce good results... Yet, if it does not recognize Christ and does not worship God, something is lacking.
(II) The self-esteem thing probably should be more understood as something like pride if we are to discuss it with the outside world, so to speak, but within monastic circles or very hardcore Christianity, it makes sense to even efface self-esteem.
But here I would not mean something like I have the ability to be a good worker or I am a nice person to others, these positive aspects of self-esteem, but rather esteeming oneself for one's good deeds when these are really the minimal thing, and our good behavior and experiences are actually attributable to the grace worked on us through Christ.
@philokalia saidMany people are understandably proud ~ in a positive sense ~ of their religion and their religious affiliation. It's only natural that some would seek to insinuate that someone leaving that religion had done it as a result of being prideful ~ in a negative sense ~ or in a shallow, or hasty, or thoughtless way, as if to suggest the affiliation and beliefs were dismissed "out of hand" or were even not understood.
(I) I appreciate that honest assessment.
I had a friend who was chronically depressed and a substance abuser that became a Buddhist and after just a year or so he was like a different person -- very positive, very kind, unflappable. He became focused and more content. I do not believe in Buddhism and would still proselytize to him gently and debate a bit if the ...[text shortened]... ur good behavior and experiences are actually attributable to the grace worked on us through Christ.
We are forced into a position, though, by the nature of our worldview, to say that it is universally negative to leave our religion.
For God is the creator of all, and thus the relationship with God comes before other things. This is why it is easier for believers of different traditions to have a tentative understanding and peace with one another than it is for themsleves to make peace with the atheists.
It is impossible to not view atheism as flawed if the purpose of man is to give thanks to his creator and father...
It is actually impossible to ever say that atheism is the right decision if you are a Christian because it is the most fundamental denial of the cosmic order.
While we could say that it is just a mistake in the way they rationalized and thought, perhaps your own position even begs for us to come up with a more sweeping conclusion: there is a moral component to this mistake that is not intellectual.
But I don't know. I certainly cannot speculate as to some vice perhaps beyond the vice of [i]hubris{/i]: thinking one has the grounds to doubt the veracity of the testimony of those who saw Christ, and thinking that one can construct a model of the universe that is godless & uncreated.
@philokalia saide.g. ''...you have rejected Christianity out of hand... ...you haven't given Christianity a fair go...'
It is impossible to not view atheism as flawed if the purpose of man is to give thanks to his creator and father...
It is actually impossible to ever say that atheism is the right decision if you are a Christian because it is the most fundamental denial of the cosmic order.
You've got the wrong end of the stick. The issue is not a silly thing some Christians say to someone because that person is an atheist. The issue is more specifically the silly thing some Christians say to an ex-Christian.
@philokalia saidIf one simply does not buy-in to whatever reasons you happen to have for your faith in certain supernatural beings and phenomena, I don't think "hubris" has anything to do with not being a member of the same religion as you. It's not "hubris" or "vice" that prevents me from being a Sikh, for example.
But I don't know. I certainly cannot speculate as to some vice perhaps beyond the vice of hubris: thinking one has the grounds to doubt the veracity of the testimony of those who saw Christ, and thinking that one can construct a model of the universe that is godless & uncreated.
@fmf said7x70.
For example, how long do you think someone should examine Christianity [while not finding it credible and not developing "faith"] before deciding that one has given it a chance based on sincere and sufficient effort?
Matthew 7,8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
@fmf saidHogwash wasn't meant as the answer to your question. The question is hogwash.
It's a reasonable question: What would you say constitutes a sincere and sufficient effort by a person to know and understand and consider your beliefs?
I don't see how "hogwash" is an answer to it.
The "beliefs" in question are the words of God. One either believes God or one doesn't.
For example: In the beginning God created... Believe that and the rest falls into place.
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What would you say constitutes a sincere and sufficient effort by a person to know and understand and consider your beliefs?
Maybe when someone thinking he has no onus to consider something, all the same gives it some consideration.
Put another way, he is more interested in truth then in getting into the stronger debate position.
@secondson saidThe question was: What would you say constitutes a sincere and sufficient effort by a person to know and understand and consider your beliefs? I don't see how it's "hogwash". Not everyone is Christian. If someone was going to give up studying Christianity [reading and talking to people about it] having had a view perhaps to converting to it, how many months of this would have constituted a sincere and sufficient effort to 'give it a chance', so to speak?
Hogwash wasn't meant as the answer to your question. The question is hogwash.
@sonship saidWhat would constitute a sincere and sufficient effort in the face of what you see as the "onus to consider something" like your religion?
@FMF
What would you say constitutes a sincere and sufficient effort by a person to know and understand and consider your beliefs?
Maybe when someone thinking he has no onus to consider something, all the same gives it some consideration.
@secondson saidHow long a time would you say was a sincere and sufficient effort to wait and see if the phenomenon described in "Matthew 7,8" works on a person or not?
Matthew 7,8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
@fmf saidA Sikh is in an extremely different position than an atheist.
If one simply does not buy-in to whatever reasons you happen to have for your faith in certain supernatural beings and phenomena, I don't think "hubris" has anything to do with not being a member of the same religion as you. It's not "hubris" or "vice" that prevents me from being a Sikh, for example.
Check out the thread on St. Dionysius and the question of evil to get a better concept of what I have been saying here.
@philokalia saidBut I am right, it's not "hubris" or "vice" that prevents me from being a Sikh, though, is it? And it's not "hubris" or "vice" that prevents me from claiming I am a Christian any more. Trying to explain something like this as being the result of "hubris" or "vice" is a poorly disguised ad hominem.
A Sikh is in an extremely different position than an atheist.
@fmf saidBy not being a Christian anymore, it is a vice.
But I am right, it's not "hubris" or "vice" that prevents me from being a Sikh, though, is it? And it's not "hubris" or "vice" that prevents me from claiming I am a Christian any more. Trying to explain something like this as being the result of "hubris" or "vice" is a poorly disguised ad hominem.
If you were to leave Christianity for another religion, this would also be a vice, but as you would be worshiping God, it would be less of a vice.
This is because man was created to have a positive relationship with God, and not an negative one.. and since it is our nature to be created to worship God, it is our obligation to worship God.
You would do well to go back to the Dionysius thread to read it!