Sins

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Well....No disrespect meant here but that makes no sense at all and in fact is really confusing to say the least. Just being honest.
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The reason why it makes no sense to you is because the Jehovah's Witnesses have caused you to under appreciate who Christ really is and what it meant for Him to be made sin for.

Your denial of the Deity of the God-man Jesus works hand in hand with your failure to see to what extent God has gone to save sinners.

In short, you are still trusting in your own good works to justify you before God. You're being cheated badly.

Because you do not believe that Christ is God Himself incarnate, you do not see that in Christ and His cross, Jehovah has gone to the uttermost step in His love, to save man.

He can do no more. God Almighty has gone to the uttermost in Christ Jesus that man might be saved. Watchtower is cheating you from seeing that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" .

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So this Lake of Fire is a real place where real humans will burn forever? If that is true then the scripture at Rom 6:23 is wrong?
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The physics of such a lake of fire we may not know. We do know, however, that it should be understood as something we would want to avoid at all costs.

And very plainly we get the picture of suffering without end - " ... was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever." (Rev. 20:10). And down little further in verse 14 we are told "This is the second death, the lake of fire."

So the second death is a place, sphere, realm or whatever you wish to term it, where the lost are "tormented day and night forever and ever."

I didn't say I liked it. But I have to accept what the word of God says. You mention in your paste below about "the book of life". However this book of life is "the book of life of the LAMB who was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8)

This proves that this book of life is intrinsically bound up in the Redeemer, the God-man, Jesus Christ, Who is the Lamb of God.

Satan, through Watchtower theology, has cheated you from grasping the significance of Who Jesus Christ really is. This Redeeming Lamb of God is God incarnate as a man to be our Savior.

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Romans 6:23 (New International Version, ©2010)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.
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I agree that the wages of sin is death. But "death" is also part of "the second DEATH" which is the lake of fire.

So the wages of sin being death cannot be used to exclude somehow the "death" of "the second death".

In other words, man dying once by the first death but being punished further in "the second death" does not contradict that "the wages of sin is death" .

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Also Prov 16:25 confirms this:

Proverbs 16:25 (21st Century King James Version)
25 There are ways which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
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Once again. The "second death" does not contradict that "the end thereof are the ways of death".

The end thereof of not having one's name recorded in the book of life of the Lamb ends in the death of the second death.

Proverbs 16:25 cannot be used to contradict Revelation 20:10.

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It clearly and very easy to understand is saying "death" is the penalty, not eternal torture.
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" ... they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

Proverbs 16:25 cannot be used to change Rev. 20:10 to read "they will [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever."

That is what YOU want it to say.

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Also if this Lake of Fire is a real place then what does the scripture at Rev 20:14 mean?
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I will conclude this here. I am aware that Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. And I am aware that these are somewhat abstractions, for lack of a better word.

I mean "How can Death or Hades" be put to suffering ? The point is taken that these are rather abtract entities (for lack of a better word). HOWEVER, that understanding provides no license and no comfort to avoid the obvious suffering revealed in Rev. 20:10.

In other words, the Devil, the Antichrist and the false prophet seem to derive no relief from knowing that fact that Death and Hades will also be cast into the lake of fire.

Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire provides no ground to assume Rev. 20:10 means " ... and they will [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Again, I think bafflement and unbelief in eternal damnation seems to run concurrent with failure to see that in Christ, God in His love, has gone as far as He possibly could, to save man.

" ... the church of God, which He obtained through His own blood" (Acts 20:28)

"Namely, that God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them ..." (2 Cor. 5:19)

Watchtower, denying the incarnation of God in Christ, has cheated you from grasping to what ultimate extent God went in His love, to save sinners.

From Wikipedia..

"The problem with Hell"

Justice.
Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill. Because human beings have a finite lifespan, they can commit only a finite number of sins, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

Against the injustice of Hell, some theists, particularly in the Thomistic tradition, have argued that God's infinite dignity requires that any transgression against him warrants an infinite punishment. On this view, the correct punishment for a crime is proportional to the status of the wronged individual. Opponents of this view object citing that the severity of a crime is determined by the amount of harm done to the victim, not by his lifespan or scope of being. An omnipotent being, by definition, cannot be harmed. Therefore, by condemning souls to an eternal damnation, God would be punishing souls for actions that had no effect on him. Others reply that the correct punishment is also proportional to the intentions and understanding of the wrongdoer.

Another justice problem involves some denominations of Christianity which believe that only by accepting Jesus can one be saved from Hell. The apparent contradiction in this postulate is brought to light by the realization that some people have never heard of Jesus and then must automatically go to Hell. There is an apparent injustice in being punished for something one does not know exists. However some branches of Christianity teach that one cannot sin unless one performs a action knowing it is wrong, or performs a action knowing it will most likely result in a bad thing (like getting drunk and then driving).

The eternity of Hell has also been justified in the Scholastic tradition by appeal to the irrevocability of the reprobate's decision to oppose God after death. Eternity is perceived not as an infinite stretch of time, but as an unchanging present. This argument however, could be challenged by the view that if wrongdoers are punished in hell, they must suffer, for which it is required that the wrongdoers must retain their sentience, in order to experience it. If this sentence is retained it follows that the wrongdoers would be aware of their transgressions and capable of repenting them.

Another argument against the justice of Hell is that humans are not culpable for their sins, since sinning is unavoidable to them. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Epistle to the Romans, 3:23) Also, if God is omniscient/prescient, He would know the person's 'eternal resting place' long before they enter into either heaven or hell, which would mean that God is ultimately the one culpable for a person's eternal fate. Most Christians attribute this inclination to sin to some variant of the doctrine of original sin, rather than to God directly. This aspect of the problem of hell reduces in part to the theistic problem of free will. The monotheistic religions, even those that lack a doctrine of original sin, agree that sin is to be imputed to the sinner and not to God.

Some theological schools, most notably the Scotists and Calvinists, have taken the position that divine justice is entirely a matter of God's positive law, not deducible by natural reason. Thus, whatever God does is just by definition, and if this contradicts our human intuitions of justice, then our intuitions are mistaken. This view is opposed by Thomists and others who espouse a natural law view of morality, or consider that divine goodness ought to be congruent with human virtue and rationality.

Modern scholars find the concept of Hell to be compatible with society's concept of Justice during the time of Jesus Christ. Romans and Egyptians and many others cultures during that time included torture as part of their justice system. Romans had crucifixion and Egyptians had desert sun death. All these acts of torture were considered necessary (as to deter others) or good (as to punish the immoral).

[edit] Divine mercyAnother issue is the problem of harmonizing the existence of Hell with God's infinite mercy or omnibenevolence.

As in the problem of evil, some apologists argue that the torments of Hell are attributable not to a defect in God's benevolence, but in human free will. Although a benevolent God would prefer to see everyone saved, he would also allow humans to control their own destinies. This view opens the possibility of seeing Hell not as retributive punishment, but rather as an option that God allows, so that people who do not wish to be with God are not forced to be. C. S. Lewis most famously proposed this view in his book The Great Divorce, saying: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'"

A problem remains regarding Christian theologies' teaching about grace, which grant that God could indeed convert the heart of every sinner and yet leave the freedom of the will in its integrity.[7] In the Thomistic tradition, God grants sufficient grace for salvation to all men, yet it only effects salvations for some. The early modern controversies on grace among the Jansenists, Jesuits and Dominicans focused in part on the question of sufficient and efficient grace, and whether these differed in kind.

Some modern critics of the doctrine of Hell (such as Marilyn McCord Adams) claim that, even if Hell is seen as a choice rather than as punishment, it would be unreasonable for God to give such flawed and ignorant creatures as ourselves the responsibility of our eternal destinies.[8] Jonathan Kvanvig, in his book, The Problem of Hell, agrees that God would not allow one to be eternally damned by a decision made under the wrong circumstances.[9] One should not always honor the choices of human beings, even when they are full adults, if, for instance, the choice is made while depressed or careless. On Kvanvig's view, God will abandon no person until they have made a settled, final decision, under favorable circumstances, to reject God, but God will respect a choice made under the right circumstances. Once a person finally and competently chooses to reject God, out of respect for the person's autonomy, God allows them to be annihilated. The fact that one must believe in God or be subject to eternal damnation or annihilation, even if the choice is completely made by a person, is often perceived as a scare tactic that inevitably forces or scares one into having to believe in God, and God would seem corrupt and evil in saying, "You can believe in me or not, but if you do not, you will either suffer for all eternity in Hell (i.e., eternal damnation) or else be destroyed or obliterated out-of-existence (i.e., annihilation)".

Originally posted by jaywill
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Well....No disrespect meant here but that makes no sense at all and in fact is really confusing to say the least. Just being honest.
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The reason why it makes no sense to you is because the Jehovah's Witnesses have caused you to under appreciate who Christ r ...[text shortened]... mate extent God went in His love, to save sinners.[/b]

No I'm not being cheated out of anything but happy for the fact that I know the God of the Bible would never, never punish me or you forever for simply being imperfect and committing sins that we all do.
And I as well as every JW on this planet completely understand the sacrifices that Jehovah and his Son Jesus made in order for our sins to be forgiven. Yes forgiven and with no chance of being burned forever for simply being human.
This belief of a burning place for humans who make mistakes is of pagan origin and was never taught by Jesus or spoken of by anyone before or after him in the Bible. It only appeared after Jesus death many decades later.
Do simple research on the internet on it's origins.
If a burning place was in store for sinners, why did Jesus never mention it?

Again I ask is Rom 6:23 wrong in that Death does NOT cancel out our sins?

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes spiritual advice from an older one in the congregation is very helpful with the many problems we face in this world today. And it's not always an easy thing to do when we are in front of them because of a matter of serious sin and a prayer done by them in our behalf is a very appreciated thing.
But as was discussed before in great detail, no impe ...[text shortened]... diator between humans and his Father Jehovah. "No one goes to the Father except thru Jesus".

This is false and a dangerous teaching that........

"no one can go to the father except through Jesus.

You have just sent 5.9 billion people to your Christian hell (lake of fire)

If Jesus were to appear right now, he would chastise you for preaching falsity.

Christianity has become a meat eaters religion for the lowest of mankind....and Jesus would not have anything to do with whats being taught in his name.

The pure teachings of Jesus have been changed to satisfy and support, the bogus superstitious Jewish teachings of the Old Testaments.

The ruling class at the time of compiling the Bible, directed what it would say, and what it would not say.....and in this way it rejected the pure teachings of Jesus, and used the name Jesus to support the bogus writtings it put forward.

To cover up the murder of Jesus, they fabricated the story that Jesus died for everyones sins....but no one can take away your sins but yourself, by following the purification process of spiritual living.

When you follow the process of spiritual living, your dirty heart becomes clean, and when it is sufficiently clean you may return to the spiritrual world, and not one second before.

These rulers who compiled the Bible, thought that if people knew that they were eternal and had many lives, they might not behave in this life, so they changed the teachings of Jesus, and told people that they only had one life.....and its heaven or hell........Have you ever heard of anything as ridiculous as that, one life to go from sinner to perfection (its bogus)

What of all the people who dont know of the Bible or Jesus, who live in the wilderness, and even if they have heard of it, it takes much time to be conversed in doctrine and to accept fully.

What of all the little children who die at a young age of two or three or four or five.....do they go to the lake of fire.

What of the millions of Hindus who worship God under a different name (same God) and these Hindus dont kill animals either.

You can now see the nonsense of these teachings, and the falsity.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
This is false and a dangerous teaching that........

"no one can go to the father except through Jesus.

You have just sent 5.9 billion people to your Christian hell (lake of fire)

If Jesus were to appear right now, he would chastise you for preaching falsity.

Christianity has become a meat eaters religion for the lowest of mankind....and Jesus ...[text shortened]... dont kill animals either.

You can now see the nonsense of these teachings, and the falsity.

If there is a god - he will include Vishvahetu with these people about to rejoin the Godhead so he can leave here quickly - very quickly - l mean like reeeeeeaaaalll fast. It would be like a wonderful belated christmas present to us all.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
This is false and a dangerous teaching that........

"no one can go to the father except through Jesus.

You have just sent 5.9 billion people to your Christian hell (lake of fire)

If Jesus were to appear right now, he would chastise you for preaching falsity.

Christianity has become a meat eaters religion for the lowest of mankind....and Jesus ...[text shortened]... dont kill animals either.

You can now see the nonsense of these teachings, and the falsity.

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This is false and a dangerous teaching that........

"no one can go to the father except through Jesus.
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You would have to blame Jesus Christ for that teaching. For Jesus is the one who uttered those words.

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You have just sent 5.9 billion people to your Christian hell (lake of fire)
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Galveston does not believe in eternal punishment, I do.

And in response, I would say that, "no one comes to the Father except through Me [Jesus]" may not mean that no one comes to the Father except through the religion of Christianity.

The "Me" there is a living Person. And I don't know that some ignorant of the New Testament will not nevertheless come to the Father, through the "Me" of Jesus.

If they come to God, one way or another, it would only be through Christ the Person, the "Me".

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If Jesus were to appear right now, he would chastise you for preaching falsity.
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I expect to be examined by Jesus someday. That is for sure.

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Christianity has become a meat eaters religion for the lowest of mankind....and Jesus would not have anything to do with whats being taught in his name.
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For sure, many things done in the name of Jesus will not be approved by Him, someday. But I don't think the eating of meat will be an issue.

His teaching emphasized not the things which go into the mouth, but the words that come out of the mouth.

"Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passess into the stomach and is expelled into the drain? But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile the man.

For out of the heart come evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies,

These are the things which defile the man ..." (Matt. 15:17-20a)

It seems the words which come out of the mouth gets man into more trouble then the meat that he eats.

If you in good conscience though, cannot eat meat, it does not interfere with you being a follower of Jesus. Any vegetarian can believe into Christ and be saved.

But he is not saved because of his vegetarianism but because of the redemptive death and resurrection of the Son of God.

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The pure teachings of Jesus have been changed to satisfy and support, the bogus superstitious Jewish teachings of the Old Testaments.
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I go to the New Testament to find the "pure" teachings of Jesus.

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The ruling class at the time of compiling the Bible, directed what it would say, and what it would not say.....and in this way it rejected the pure teachings of Jesus, and used the name Jesus to support the bogus writtings it put forward.
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I go to the New Testament to find the "pure" teaching of Jesus. I don't believe that the New Testament are "bogus writings".

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To cover up the murder of Jesus, they fabricated the story that Jesus died for everyones sins....but no one can take away your sins but yourself, by following the purification process of spiritual living.
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Seven hundred years before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah spoke of the Suffering Servant of God making Himself an offering for sins. This is in Isaiah chapter 53. And many many other places, pre-dating Christ's birth, prophesied of His redemptive act.

In this way, after His resurrection, He opened the minds of His disciples to see how the Old Testament had predicted His mission. After His resurrection He spoke also these words:

"And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures [OT Scriptures] the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:25-27)

And again He said "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures;

And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (Luke 24:44-47)

So centries before the incarnation of God in Christ, the Old Testament Hebrew Bible predicted the mission of the Son of God.

These matters were not superimposed upon His mission afterwards.

Look at these words of Isaiah chapter 53, the prophet's writings 700 years before the birth of Jesus:

"We all like sheep have gone astray; Each of us has turned to hs own way, And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall upon Him. (v.6)

He was oppressed, and it was He who was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter and like a sheep that is dumb before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. (v.7)

But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He makes Himself an offering for sin, He will see a seed, He will extend His days, and the pleasure of Jehovah will prosper in His hand." (v. 10)

This of course means His resurrection. Though He is crushed to death He will rise from the dead and extend His days. Actually His dispensing of His Spirit into millions of those saved is also Him extending His days - living again in those whom He has saved.

"He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, and He will be satisfied; By the knowledgeof Him, the righteous One; My Servant, will make the many righteous, And He will bear their iniquities." (v.11)

This means Christ's death and resurrection will justify many before God and His indwelling them will also constitute them righteous. He will make many righteous, positionally and dispositionally. This will satisfy Him. He rises from the dead and sees the fruit of the travail of His soul on the cross. He will see the positive outcome of His redemptive act for eternity.

"Because He poured out His life unto death and was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors." (v.12b)

On the cross Jesus interceded for the transgressors of all the world crying to the Father 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

This was the murder of the Righeous Son of God. The only way that the Father could forgive them was to make Christ the Substitute and judge the sins of the world upon this Substitute. So He made Himself an offering for sins.

He bore then the iniquities of us all. The justice due us fell upon Him because God could only forgive us by judging our sins in Christ the Substitute.

Christ provided a blank check given to the world into which we may enter any amount we need. His sacrifice was more than more than enough to atone for the sins of everyone.

"He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors."

Therefore, "If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness ... And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous; And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 1:8-10)

This is only concerning the judicial aspect of redemption in this post. Anyway, the Old Testament prophets predicted this redemptive work of Christ centries before He was born.

Originally posted by jaywill

"...false witnessings, blasphemies,..."

"These are the things which defile the man ..." (Matt. 15:17-20a)

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, Vishva, it tolls for thee...

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]========================================
This is false and a dangerous teaching that........

"no one can go to the father except through Jesus.
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You would have to blame Jesus Christ for that teaching. For Jesus is the one who uttered those words.

====================================== ...[text shortened]... is redemptive work of Christ centries before He was born.

You can confess your sins till the cows come home, but the desire to sin must be cleansed, or you will no set one toe in your heaven.

If you choose to be cruel to animals, then your karma will be cruel to you, and you will take birth again in this world of suffering over and over again.

You keep quoting the bible but i have just explained that the pure teachings of Jesus have been raped by the ruling class, and they have put their own words in the place where Jesus had his words.

Where it says "I am the way and the truth and the life"....it should say: "these teachings that I have given you are the way and the truth and the life"

The ruling class have changed most of the passages, to make the man Jesus into a God.

But the Father in heaven is God and Jesus is a teacher, who was murdered because he undermined the authority of the Jewish Rabbis, who pleaded with the Romans to stop this man from taking their thunder away.

Now they did not do this in every circumstance, but they did enough damage to misdirect the people away from true spiritual living..... even to the point in convincing everyone that animal cruelty is glorified by God.

Can you believe that....you actually accept that God is pleased by your cruelty towards animals....how bizzar.

Did not Saint Francis set the proper example for caring for animals and respecting all life....now there was a true Christian.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
You can confess your sins till the cows come home, but the desire to sin must be cleansed, or you will no set one toe in your heaven.

If you choose to be cruel to animals, then your karma will be cruel to you, and you will take birth again in this world of suffering over and over again.

You keep quoting the bible but i have just explained that the p er example for caring for animals and respecting all life....now there was a true Christian.

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You can confess your sins till the cows come home, but the desire to sin must be cleansed, or you will no set one toe in your heaven.
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It is true. Christ's salvation saves man first from the guilt of sin. Then in the process of sanctification and transformation He saves man from the power of sin.

The two aspects are seen together in this passage:

"For if we, being enemies, were reconcliced to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)

Step one is the be reconciled to God through the death of God's Son.
Step two is being saved "much more" in the realm of His resurrection Person being imparted into us as "life".

The impartation of Christ Himself into man saves man from the power of sinning in the sphere of His life.

Forgiveness is not an end in itself. But forgiveness is the initial part of God's eternal purpose to conform men and women into the image of the Firstborn Son of God through His indwelling Holy Spirit:

"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.

But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

So you see the Holy Spirit is working to transform the believer into the same image of Christ. This is more then confessing past sins. This is being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus from one degree of expression to the next, to the next .... from glory to glory by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

So we see "Because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

Your complaint is already covered in God's full salvation.

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If you choose to be cruel to animals, then your karma will be cruel to you, and you will take birth again in this world of suffering over and over again.
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Let me ask you this. In a nearby wetland swampy area, there are perhaps 100 million misquitos or other insects. Do you believe that each one of them either was or will be a human being ?

Do you hold that every animal is either going to be or was at once a human being ?

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You keep quoting the bible but i have just explained that the pure teachings of Jesus have been raped by the ruling class, and they have put their own words in the place where Jesus had his words.
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Yes, I quote the Bible a lot. And the reason I do so is because of my own personal experience in being saved through Jesus. I use to argue a lot with Christians. I do not remember at all the content of those arguments.

If I remembered anything it was portions of the word of God which years latter came back to me. For that reason I quote the word of God.

The process of faith being born in a person can take decades or years. I wager that years from now people I talk to will not remember any of the points of these debates. But the Holy Spirit may bring back to their memory some passage of the word of God.

So I do not trust in my arguments. The word of God will not return void. It will do its work, albeit after many years, if necessary.

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Where it says "I am the way and the truth and the life"....it should say: "these teachings that I have given you are the way and the truth and the life"

The ruling class have changed most of the passages, to make the man Jesus into a God.
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I don't know who taught you that.

But for Jesus to say He is the way the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him, means, among other things -

The destination is a Person - the Father. And the way is a Person - Jesus. The living Person is the living way into the living Person. This all a matter of a living Person - the Triune God. Since the place into which we are to go is a living Person, the way to the place is also a living Person.

The Lord Jesus is a living Person bringing man into a living God. It is not a philosophy, a vibration, a system, a religion, a political matter or any kind of intellectual concept. But it is a living Person to whom God seeks to bring us.

And no one comes except through the living Person of the "Me", Jesus the Son of God. So you should speak to Him, open up to Him, and receive Him into your heart.

And you should do so while you have time. For the moment will come when you will have no more time to make this choice.

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But the Father in heaven is God and Jesus is a teacher, who was murdered because he undermined the authority of the Jewish Rabbis, who pleaded with the Romans to stop this man from taking their thunder away.
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Jesus is God mingled with man. Jesus is God united with man. Jesus is God incorporated with man to be our Lord.

To shed blood He had to be a man. To make the shedding of the blood have eternal significance, He had to be God Almighty Himself.

This was prophesied centries before the God Man Jesus came on the earth. For example in the prophet Isaiah again, about 700 years prior to His birth:

"For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace ..." (Isa. 9:6)

The born child is the Mighty God.
The given "son" is the Eternal Father.

This is none other then God incarnated as a man. This is "Wonderful". That is difficult to explain, beyond one's powers to fully comprehend. But it is not beyond one's powers to enjoy and experience personally.

So we are commanded to believe. He acts as Mighty God, though He is a born child. And He acts as the Eternal Father though He is the given Son of God.

Maybe God would use you to take this good news to millions of your countrymen, like Ravi Zacharias.

YouTube&feature=related

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Now they did not do this in every circumstance, but they did enough damage to misdirect the people away from true spiritual living..... even to the point in convincing everyone that animal cruelty is glorified by God.

Can you believe that....you actually accept that God is pleased by your cruelty towards animals....how bizzar.

Did not Saint Francis set the proper example for caring for animals and respecting all life....now there was a true Christian.
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Cruelity to animals is only one of many many transgressions from which we must be saved.

It may be very important to you in your culture. But it is only one matter. There are many more. Christ saves us from both the guilt of sin and the power of sin.

Did you ever think to pray and talk to the Lord Jesus all that you are telling me here? You should take your complaints directly to Christ in prayer, pouring out your heart to God.

The one who would come forward to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Come forward to God through receiving Christ the available and living Lord.

So is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

Originally posted by galveston75
So is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

no

And I think you do too much cutting and pasteing words from other articles rather than discuss in your own words.

You tend to send people off to discuss with other writers of articles. I don't like to respond to easy-do-it cut and pastes from other people's labors. Once in awhile is Okay. But I think you employ that method too much.

Originally posted by jaywill
no

And I think you do too much cutting and pasteing words from other articles rather than discuss in your own words.

You tend to send people off to discuss with other writers of articles. I don't like to respond to easy-do-it cut and pastes from other people's labors. Once in awhile is Okay. But I think you employ that method too much.

So if there not the same, what's the differance?

Originally posted by galveston75
So if there not the same, what's the differance?

Strictly speaking, everyone who dies, goes to Hell. But not everyone who dies goes to Hell to be punished.

Hell, or the OT Sheol, is a temporary holding area for all the departed immaterial portion of humans who have physically died.

Strictly speaking, Hell or Hades or Sheol, is a place everybody goes to when they physically die, saint of God or not.

There is a pleasant portion of Hades (Hell) and an unpleasant portion of Hades. The pleasant section is called Paradise or Abraham's bosom. Though I can think of no specific name for the unpleasant portion of Hades, it is where there is punishment.

Hell, after the millennial kingdom, will have no more use to God. And it will be cast into the lake of fire. The unpleasant portion of Hades will just continue, but now as the punishment of the lake of fire. I mean those resurrected from the unpleasant portion of Hades will be cast body, soul, and spirit into the lake of fire. Their entire being will perish there forever.

For the lost, we might say Hell is a temporary jail while the lake of fire is a permenant prison.

The pleasant portion of Hell or Hades will be emptied in resurrection. That resurrection is unto eternal life - spirit, soul, and body (glorified).

Originally posted by galveston75
No I'm not being cheated out of anything but happy for the fact that I know the God of the Bible would never, never punish me or you forever for simply being imperfect and committing sins that we all do.
And I as well as every JW on this planet completely understand the sacrifices that Jehovah and his Son Jesus made in order for our sins to be forgiven ever mention it?

Again I ask is Rom 6:23 wrong in that Death does NOT cancel out our sins?

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No I'm not being cheated out of anything but happy for the fact that I know the God of the Bible would never, never punish me or you forever for simply being imperfect and committing sins that we all do.
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An Ultimate Authority and an ultimate punishement for the ultimate rebellion, make sense to me.

A love which knows no greater love and a retribution which knows no greater retribution, coming from the same God, makes sense to me.

It is really a matter of God's responsibility. If God is not the ultimate Governor and Judge, then an ultimate punishment might make no sense. But if God is the ultimate Governor, it is really His responsibility to His creation to let them know that rejection of the ultimate cannot be done and the rebel win.

IF God is not the ultimate righteous one, then eternal punishment does not make sense. But if God is the ultimate righteous One then rejection of God accompanied by the ultimate punishment, though terrible, makes sense.

You cannot reject God and win. You must loose if you reject God.

Do you understand that ? It has to do with His ultimacy.

What I think we should think about, is to what wonderful and tremendous extent God has gone to save us from that terrible consequence.

Now it may not be as easy as we think, to fall into that terrible fate. And we may be in for many surprises. But that there is an ultimate punishment makes sense if He is God, and there is no One more righteous or greater or loving for that matter.

If you want nothing to do with God, ultimately you cannot win, period. You must lose.

You must lose eternally. Now, we need to see what God has done in Christ to save man, in His great love, from that fate.

Originally posted by jaywill
Strictly speaking, everyone who dies, goes to Hell. But not everyone who dies goes to Hell to be punished.

Hell, or the OT Sheol, is a temporary holding area for all the departed immaterial portion of humans who have physically died.

Strictly speaking, Hell or Hades or Sheol, is a place everybody goes to when they physically die, saint of God or no ...[text shortened]... d in resurrection. That resurrection is unto eternal life - spirit, soul, and body (glorified).

Could you please quote scriptures that explain this as I've never seen anything in the Bible that says hell is pleasent or that Ha'des and Sheol has different parts to it? That's all new to me.......