1. Joined
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    12 Jan '07 05:16
    Just because God doesnt follow our prayers to the letter does NOT mean he doesnt hear them. Because God does. God is all knowing. But that doesnt mean he will answer all prayers when and where they are given to him.

    Son house, Your response was simply childish.. I cant think of a better word for it. Im not trying to insult you, but surely you see how it has very little significant worth in a discussion of this subject?

    AceMaster, I agree with your assessment regarding the extent to which God answers our prayers. We must remember that God has a divine plan for all of us, and that our own personal desires cannot be mplaced higher than that. God will not cause miracles on a whim, nor will he shift his divine world's path so readily.

    Im not saying that you asked for hell on earth, but that in itself is a point that should be looked at. What if a christian man, for all the right reasons, prayed for more hardships in another's life to help teach them the clarity that belief could bring.. I know, its abad example, but surely there are many prayers with equal if not less value to God's plan... He will answer prayers where needed or where simply possible. And keep in mind that just because we 'need' things for our own plans to come to fruition, it does NOT mean that the world 'needs' them to occur, that that God 'wants' them to occur. He cares for all of us, but even God has limits, of a sort.
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    12 Jan '07 15:38
    Originally posted by N8Grandjam
    Just because God doesnt follow our prayers to the letter does NOT mean he doesnt hear them. Because God does. God is all knowing. But that doesnt mean he will answer all prayers when and where they are given to him.

    Son house, Your response was simply childish.. I cant think of a better word for it. Im not trying to insult you, but surely you see how ...[text shortened]... God 'wants' them to occur. He cares for all of us, but even God has limits, of a sort.
    So it's in god's plan to have little children born with horrible deformities? Maybe for payment of a cruel life before? Maybe to teach the parents to be humble? What possible reason could there be for a god to create such a cruel fate for a little girl? There are some born with such horrible deformities it seems unspeakably insane to think a god brought this all about. Puts a big hole in the idea your god is so loving.
  3. Joined
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    12 Jan '07 17:12
    I doubt that it puts a hole in anything Ive said. Material damage to people such as radiation exposure, and chemical injestion on small scale, can account for such deformities. Did GOD make that happen? No, God allowed it to happen, just as he Allows us to do things that arent always good for us.

    Sure, in his divine mercy he could likely help those afflicted with such atrocities attain salvation, but in his divine wisdom he made us seek him out to achieve it. Those most afflicted by hardships have the most to gain from God. God hates us because he allows us to get sick? Hardly. Thats actually a really stark and self centered view and hence why I dont condone it within myself.

    So do you believe in life after death? Reincarnation? If not, why bother using such a thing in your argument... I understand that people like to play the Devil's advocate just for debate, but to add such values into your argument without honest belief in such things, only further complicates this discussion. Notice I didnt say debate, as the only thing to win here is understanding, not fame or credit like the politicians that hound for such things.
  4. Joined
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    12 Jan '07 17:54
    Originally posted by Wayne1324
    God is nowhere my man. Before I was awakened, I asked night after night, day after day for him to come and save me. I didnt want to reach the beliefs that I have. They took me by force.

    If god were real, he would have saved me when I asked him to. Over and over I asked.

    Therefore, I have reached the conclusion that there is no god.
    if god did appear, its no longer based on faith
  5. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    12 Jan '07 19:152 edits
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    if god did appear, its no longer based on faith
    which is what it should be, not based on faith. I'd rather have a god come down and say, look dude, Sorry to say it, but you really don't have this soul thing you seem to think you have, and when you die, all you are is bug food so you get this one chance and the rest is up to your genes to make the future what it will. Don't expect me to stop a big asteroid from stiking the planet if it comes your way, you better figure out how to stop it yourself or you will end up like the dino's. So what if I made you and the whole universe, you are just one of many universes I made and there are thousands of experiments like yours going on in the arena of space-time so if you screw things up, tough luck for you.On the other hand, you have plenty of potential for incredible growth so it's up to you. See you later, like maybe in a million years. Hasta lavista baby, and he dissapears in a cloud of dust. THAT I could believe.
  6. Standard memberRBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    California
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    13 Jan '07 03:10
    Originally posted by Wayne1324
    God is nowhere my man. Before I was awakened, I asked night after night, day after day for him to come and save me. I didnt want to reach the beliefs that I have. They took me by force.

    If god were real, he would have saved me when I asked him to. Over and over I asked.

    Therefore, I have reached the conclusion that there is no god.
    You din't look in all the right places.

    You need to ask Christ to come into your life and forgive you of your sins. Ask him to show you by asking him to help you with a phobia problem if you might have one?
  7. Standard memberAgerg
    The 'edit'or
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    13 Jan '07 14:432 edits
    Originally posted by N8Grandjam
    I doubt that it puts a hole in anything Ive said. Material damage to people such as radiation exposure, and chemical injestion on small scale, can account for such deformities. Did GOD make that happen? No, God allowed it to happen, just as he Allows us to do things that arent always good for us.

    Sure, in his divine mercy he could likely help those af win here is understanding, not fame or credit like the politicians that hound for such things.
    I doubt that it puts a hole in anything Ive said. Material damage to people such as radiation exposure, and chemical injestion on small scale, can account for such deformities. Did GOD make that happen? No, God allowed it to happen, just as he Allows us to do things that arent always good for us.

    Sure, in his divine mercy he could likely help those afflicted with such atrocities attain salvation, but in his divine wisdom he made us seek him out to achieve it. Those most afflicted by hardships have the most to gain from God. God hates us because he allows us to get sick? Hardly. Thats actually a really stark and self centered view and hence why I dont condone it within myself.


    So you hold to the opinion that for ALL people who suffer some grave affliction, horrific accident, abomination at the hands of another person etc.., and recieve no mercy other than a long and painful death; there exists NO person who sought God's help???
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    15 Jan '07 11:51
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So it's in god's plan to have little children born with horrible deformities? Maybe for payment of a cruel life before? Maybe to teach the parents to be humble? What possible reason could there be for a god to create such a cruel fate for a little girl? There are some born with such horrible deformities it seems unspeakably insane to think a god brought this all about. Puts a big hole in the idea your god is so loving.
    There's no easy answer to suffering. All that can be said is that if God had not had himself nailed to a cross and entered into our suffering then it could all be dismissed very easily. Christ himself weeps inside that little girl and is with her and it is Christ who will redeem her to eternity. Interestingly , Christianity is the only religion that has even half a chance of engaging with suffering because God himself suffers. God's love is tough enough and hard enough to embrace suffering , he meets it head on and wins. But this is not to say it is an easy answer , it's hard , very hard...but his love is big enough.
  9. Joined
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    15 Jan '07 13:273 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Christ himself weeps inside that little girl and is with her and it is Christ who will redeem her to eternity.
    And I'm sure that this helps this little girl throughout her hard life. I have a few personal experiences that would, if there was a god, probably make me hate him.

    To the original posters question though... I dont think you can assume absolutes at all in our universe. Meaning, if there were a god, he/she/it could live outside our universe. Someone once said, "Not only is the universe queerer than we think, it is queerer than we can think."


    Edit: typos
  10. Joined
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    15 Jan '07 14:072 edits
    Originally posted by N8Grandjam
    I doubt that it puts a hole in anything Ive said. Material damage to people such as radiation exposure, and chemical injestion on small scale, can account for such deformities. Did GOD make that happen? No, God allowed it to happen, just as he Allows us to do things that arent always good for us.
    Perhaps He didn´t make it happen, but neither did the little girl born with deformities because her parents were exposed to radiation or whatever. Let´s say that she was afflicted with this condition by exposure to radiation while still in the womb and therefore not self-aware, not responsible for her own actions, or indeed of making any significant actions of her own. So how can it be justified, if God is benevolent, for this little girl to suffer for reasons which were entirely not her fault. Because, like you say, it will bring her closer to God in the long run? Sorry, but why would I choose to accept a life of pain and suffering in this world for extra bonus points in heaven when I eventually die, when I can get into heaven anyway by leading a normal, healthy, good life? (Considering that heaven is by definition the most amazing and wonderful experience possible bar none, so there can´t be degrees of heaven)

    Maybe it is a punishment delivered upon her parents because they were sinners. Is that justification for this child´s life of misery? Not if God is supposed to be infinitely benevolent and caring.

    Would you choose to take all her suffering and pain for a lifetime if it would bring you closer to God?

    You´re right, though: bad things happen to people which are their fault, or which are a result of their actions even though they were aware what they were doing was dangerous or wrong. But bad things also happen to people which are not their fault. If God is benevolent, why should any good person ever be killed by a drunk driver or cancer, or any reason you care to name?
  11. Cape Town
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    15 Jan '07 14:24
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Always wondered about that.
    First define:
    1. God
    2. The Universe
    3. Death (or life)

    In my opinion.
    1. God is imaginary and does not exist.
    2. The universe includes all physical entities including any possible God entities if they do happen to exist.
    3. The definition of life does not include gods (if they exist) and therefore his is not alive and cannot die.
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    15 Jan '07 20:06
    Originally posted by Wayne1324
    And I'm sure that this helps this little girl throughout her hard life. I have a few personal experiences that would, if there was a god, probably make me hate him.

    To the original posters question though... I dont think you can assume absolutes at all in our universe. Meaning, if there were a god, he/she/it could live outside our universe. Someone once ...[text shortened]... ly is the universe queerer than we think, it is queerer than we can think."


    Edit: typos
    And I'm sure that this helps this little girl throughout her hard life. I have a few personal experiences that would, if there was a god, probably make me hate him. WAYNE

    Nevertheless , God would still love you all the same and he will be helping this little girl in her mental and spiritual struggles. But there is no easy answer. God has allowed for freedom to exist in the universe , he has let the universe "loose" as it were and sometimes it leads to some incredibly hard situations. God has committed himself to meeting us in our agony with the agony of Christ on the cross. He meets us with his own blood and suffering and continues to meet us in the Holy Spirit. When it got tough he did not go away and did not shirk the responsibility.

    In your personal struggles did you not ever feel even once that you were being given any strength or being helped at all? Afterall you got through it somehow....was it ALL down to you?
  13. Joined
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    15 Jan '07 22:03
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    In your personal struggles did you not ever feel even once that you were being given any strength or being helped at all? Afterall you got through it somehow....was it ALL down to you?
    Yes my friend... it was ALL down to me. I got myself through the experiences. Sometimes with the help of others who shared them.

    And if you say that the help from others was gods way of helping me, then I will say that you are grasping at straws, looking for any answer that serves your beliefs.
  14. Joined
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    16 Jan '07 03:13
    "So you hold to the opinion that for ALL people who suffer some grave affliction, horrific accident, abomination at the hands of another person etc.., and recieve no mercy other than a long and painful death; there exists NO person who sought God's help???"

    Never have I alluded to such a preposterous possibility. I know that there are many people who pray for God's assistance when other people's choices inflict pain and suffering on them. I also know that God cannot change free will, so the results of our choices, or the choices of others, CANNOT be controlled by God. God loves us, but cannot stop us from harming ourself or those around us. Its sad, but true. Would you want God to keep us from ALL harm that we didnt make choices to cause for us? If so, how would this world run? Where would the boundaries end for God's micromanagement of EVERY facet of this world? I, for one, am glad the universe exists at all in a form thats conducive to life as we know it, suffering or no. I accept the fact that we are bound to the results of our actions and I accept that regardless of the selfless nature of many of us, we are unable to prevent our poor choices from afflicting others. Is it fair? Its complicated, but its reality, and just because I or anyone else cant quite seem to grasp or understand God's methods with 100% clarity is no reason to abandon reverence for the only thing which provides for our existence... Namely, God, the universe, the creator, or even the wheel of existence in whatever capacity you perceive it.

    God is just? Who are we to claim knowledge of such a supremely complicated subject?

    Nige22 : "Perhaps He didn´t make it happen, but neither did the little girl born with deformities because her parents were exposed to radiation or whatever. Let´s say that she was afflicted with this condition by exposure to radiation while still in the womb and therefore not self-aware, not responsible for her own actions, or indeed of making any significant actions of her own. So how can it be justified, if God is benevolent, for this little girl to suffer for reasons which were entirely not her fault. Because, like you say, it will bring her closer to God in the long run? Sorry, but why would I choose to accept a life of pain and suffering in this world for extra bonus points in heaven when I eventually die, when I can get into heaven anyway by leading a normal, healthy, good life? (Considering that heaven is by definition the most amazing and wonderful experience possible bar none, so there can´t be degrees of heaven)

    Maybe it is a punishment delivered upon her parents because they were sinners. Is that justification for this child´s life of misery? Not if God is supposed to be infinitely benevolent and caring.

    Would you choose to take all her suffering and pain for a lifetime if it would bring you closer to God?

    You´re right, though: bad things happen to people which are their fault, or which are a result of their actions even though they were aware what they were doing was dangerous or wrong. But bad things also happen to people which are not their fault. If God is benevolent, why should any good person ever be killed by a drunk driver or cancer, or any reason you care to name?"

    Same response to the first quote... God cannot shape our choices, he made the world, its our pool to piss in.
  15. Cape Town
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    16 Jan '07 06:31
    Originally posted by N8Grandjam
    Never have I alluded to such a preposterous possibility. I know that there are many people who pray for God's assistance when other people's choices inflict pain and suffering on them. I also know that God cannot change free will, so the results of our choices, or the choices of others, CANNOT be controlled by God.
    You are effectively saying that God is incapable of interfering with the universe or assisting anyone in any way as that will conflict with the concept of free will.
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